The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[MusicChick]

I lived in the UK.

How much of an opinion would think-police allow me to have?

I hang out with some unicorns there. And I am a fairy.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Still, the helpless people were ruthlessly misled in the Brexit referendum. The poor, the blind, the old, the limp, the blind, the deaf: all were misled. The believed in a country of unicorns and fairies, a non-EU walhalla, a paradise on earth but got the snake from Adam and Eve. Maybe better that they wouldn't be allowed to vote at all.

Well, once you clear away your hyperbole , the flipside to that is that everyone, without exception, was totally clear on how the UK would leave the EU and all the implications as soon as they put their X on the ballot paper.

Although I don't remember too many column inches in the press (pro or contra Brexit) before June 2016 pointing out the current red lines, road blocks and general mess.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I lived in the UK. How much of an opinion would think-police allow me to have? I hang out with some unicorns there. And I am a fairy.

Have an opinion by all means, but accept that we're not all going to agree with FMF or Loz.

You don't have to start a "who lived in the UK" competition to do that.

	Quote:
	Well, once you clear away your hyperbole , the flipside to that is that everyone, without exception, was totally clear on how the UK would leave the EU and all the implications as soon as they put their X on the ballot paper. Although I don't remember too many column inches in the press (pro or contra Brexit) before June 2016 pointing out the current red lines, road blocks and general mess.

Yup. The arrogance of Mr Cameron and the incompetence his successor have created one really quite intractable mess.

I despise everything the EU stands for, but I don't see how the UK is supposed to leave it with such little time to get it organised.

If I were a patriotic man, I'd be ashamed to be British.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	Have an opinion by all means, but accept that we're not all going to agree with FMF or Loz.

Nobody expects that.

Aren't they also just poor uninforned sods, too? Isn't what people with different opinions get called? Or extreme right, lol.

The have put out with major flack here, I am surprised they still stick around. Fun times

	Quote:
	Um, no I didn't. In fact, I said at least twice that I disagreed with much of what they say. My point is that rather than listening to what Polly Toynbee and people on EF say people are thinking and saying, we should listen to what the people themselves are saying - and what they are saying, in my experience, is not what Polly Toynbee and people on EF are saying they're saying. Any clearer?

Yes, a bit clearer. You're right, you didn't imply that "all they say" is correct, just the parts that you agree with.

So what it boils down to is that we should listen to and agree with the things that are said (that we like) by the people on the forum that you visit, because they live in the UK. I'm certain that there exist forums, based in the UK, populated by UK-dwellers, that present an overwhelmingly Remain/anti-Brexit stance. Are those people wrong, then?

I could also direct you to a Flat Earthers forum, where 99% of the posts would support your conviction that Pythagoras, Aristarchus, et al. were wrong, if you were of a mind to think that way...

[marton]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Nobody expects that. Aren't they also just poor uninforned sods, too? Isn't what people with different opinions get called? Or extreme right, lol. The have put out with major flack here, I am surprised they still stick around. Fun times

I am surprised you are attempting to drive division rather than unity?

	Quote:
	Yes, a bit clearer. You're right, you didn't imply that "all they say" is correct, just the parts that you agree with. So what it boils down to is that we should listen to and agree with the things that are said (that we like) by the people on the forum that you visit, because they live in the UK. I'm certain that there exist forums, based in the UK, populated by UK-dwellers, that present an overwhelmingly Remain/anti-Brexit stance. Are those people wrong, then?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I have plainly and clearly stated that I disagree with much of what I read posted on that forum. I have also never suggested that anyone here should agree with what people are saying there.

Again, for the hard of thinking: lots of people, both in newspapers and here on EF, have tried to explain why people voted for Brexit. Rather than listen to second-hand opinions, I have gone and read what Brexit voters are saying in their own words.

I thought, perhaps, that people might be interested in seeing what I have learnt there.

Obviously I was wrong.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Are you being deliberately obtuse? I have plainly and clearly stated that I disagree with much of what I read posted on that forum. I have also never suggested that anyone here should agree with what people are saying there. Again, for the hard of thinking: lots of people, both in newspapers and here on EF, have tried to explain why people voted for Brexit. Rather than listen to second-hand opinions, I have gone and read what Brexit voters are saying in their own words. I thought, perhaps, that people might be interested in seeing what I have learnt there. Obviously I was wrong.

I also belong to a UK based pro Brexit forum. One recent example is people will need to change their habits and learn to eat Cheddar cheese instead of French cheese. Firstly it is patriotic and secondly there is no guarantee French cheese will continue to be available at competitive prices.
Nobody painted that on a bus!

[Fish Paste]

	Quote:
	.... Have an opinion by all means, but accept that we're not all going to agree with FMF or Loz.

or Troubleaware

Let’s have some balance, pleeeassse.

	Quote:
	Again, for the hard of thinking: lots of people, both in newspapers and here on EF, have tried to explain why people voted for Brexit. Rather than listen to second-hand opinions, I have gone and read what Brexit voters are saying in their own words. I thought, perhaps, that people might be interested in seeing what I have learnt there. Obviously I was wrong.

Actually that would be interesting. Is there a way you can just cut out a slab of a typical point of view from one of the discussions and post it in quotes here? You don't have to link it to anywhere. Just so we can have a gander at "ground zero" as it were.

	Quote:	marton
	I also belong to a UK based pro Brexit forum. One recent example is people will need to change their habits and learn to eat Cheddar cheese instead of French cheese. Firstly it is patriotic and secondly there is no guarantee French cheese will continue to be available at competitive prices. Nobody painted that on a bus!

I'll be honest and admit that there is a fair bit of that kind of stuff on the forum I frequent, too!

	Quote:
	Actually that would be interesting. Is there a way you can just cut out a slab of a typical point of view from one of the discussions and post it in quotes here? You don't have to link it to anywhere. Just so we can have a gander at "ground zero" as it were.

It's a bit of a bugger to navigate, but I'll see what I can do later.

I might have to edit for language, though.

	Quote:
	Are you being deliberately obtuse? I have plainly and clearly stated that I disagree with much of what I read posted on that forum. I have also never suggested that anyone here should agree with what people are saying there. Again, for the hard of thinking: lots of people, both in newspapers and here on EF, have tried to explain why people voted for Brexit. Rather than listen to second-hand opinions, I have gone and read what Brexit voters are saying in their own words. I thought, perhaps, that people might be interested in seeing what I have learnt there. Obviously I was wrong.

Yep, you were.

What you have done, at least according to your earlier post, is gone on to one forum. The people on there are self-selected and, if it is so dominant pro-Brexit as you say, forum mechanics will tend to drive the participants to agree with each other on fundamentals. In particular the very fact that they are active on that forum is a strong indicator that they are likely to be more informed than the general population.

Basic statistics will easily tell you that that you see there is wholly unreliable as any sort of guide to what the mass of people are thinking or what their Brexit motivations. If you really want to know about that you need to start with a controlled, randomised survey representative of the whole population. Difficult for any individual to achieve.

FWIW, my UK friends are London or Scotland based, all are (or were as some are now retired) "working people", are also well informed and are Remain to a man/woman.

	Quote:
	The people on there are self-selected and, if it is so dominant pro-Brexit as you say, forum mechanics will tend to drive the participants to agree with each other on fundamentals. In particular the very fact that they are active on that forum is a strong indicator that they are likely to be more informed than the general population.

The people are self-selected by virtue of having links to a geographical area. It is not a specialist "Brexit" forum. There are as many posts about the demolition of the multi-storey car park and the woeful gritting of local roads as there are about Brexit, but I didn't think anyone here would be interested in those.

Never mind. This thread will continue to be the same voices shouting over each other whether I contribute or not.

	Quote:
	Are you being deliberately obtuse?

No, not deliberately! (I'm sure you'll draw your own conclusions.)

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	I thought, perhaps, that people might be interested in seeing what I have learnt there. Obviously I was wrong.

No, I'm interested, as is Sandgrounder, apparently. But I'm fully aware that the full continuum of opinions and voting reasons (based on an equally full continuum from misinformation and lies to researched facts) can be found in fora across the UK. I think it's a little disingenuous to present the opinions voiced on one cherry-picked pro-Brexit forum, where the posters overwhelmingly support your stated preference (that the UK leave the EU). Why not report on what Remainers are saying? Or how the undecided, or even the non-voters, think?

Doesn't it seem a little one-sided (and echo-chambery) to talk only about a group of people that support your basic view, even if you disagree on minor side issues?

	Quote:
	Why not report on what Remainers are saying?

Because last time I looked, Polly Toynbee wasn't shoving words into Remainers' mouths.

	Quote:
	Because last time I looked, Polly Toynbee wasn't shoving words into Remainers' mouths.

I see. (Well, I don't, actually, since you've got Farage and his merry band to counter Polly and her acolytes, but I'm going to pretend that what you say makes perfect sense because then the pain will just go away and everything will be fluffy again.)

Ok. Message received and understood.

	Quote:
	The people are self-selected by virtue of having links to a geographical area. It is not a specialist "Brexit" forum. There are as many posts about the demolition of the multi-storey car park and the woeful gritting of local roads as there are about Brexit, but I didn't think anyone here would be interested in those. Never mind. This thread will continue to be the same voices shouting over each other whether I contribute or not.

If it is a forum from Cannock, it is very much self-selecting. Most of the mutants there haven't developed the opposable thumbs needed to open a laptop. Some of them might have some luck with their prehensile tails though.

Having a mooch round on Brexit related forums I found this post by a leaver which I actually agree with. I wouldn't have voted leave on the strength of it, but it does expose a more domestic problem we have which perhaps the EU was taking the heat for...

	Quote:
	I agree the problem is that the EU and other issues have been the scapegoat. The main reason I voted to Leave is so that the EU couldnt be a scapegoat anymore. Yes it might become a rougher ride. But sometimes in this world we have to struggle to appreciate what we've got. At every general election we have the chance to change our system. When the government can't pass the buck to anyone else and the country is going downhill, and it begins to affect the lives of joe and joely bloggs, people are more likely to vote for a real change and are more likely to get off their butts and do something about it. The main problem I see with the British people is we put up with a lot of crap before we do anything about it. Maybe when the crap is high... it will start hitting the fan.