The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Phos]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	The Grauniad reports, The commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, said before the vote: “Cameron got the maximum he could receive and we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no renegotiation, not on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned.” http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...t-happens-next

These pronouncements by these people are not really worth as much as they would like you to think. I believe Hollande said similar things, and Obama threatened the UK by putting at "end of the queue".

But these guys will be gone in a little while. Do they seriously think they can outlast the UK? It is ridiculous hubris.

The UK will continue to trade with Europe, and people will continue to live and work across borders, I assure you.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	You should leave a country that isn't in the EU to return to a country that soon won't be in the EU. Yup, your argument makes real sense.

No. If you are in Switzerland precisely because of the EU free movement provisions (which also apply here) and have now voted to remove that privilege from everyone else in your position in the future you have yourself lost the moral right to continue to benefit from that arrangement. As was explained in Odile's post I quoted.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	You should leave a country that isn't in the EU to return to a country that soon won't be in the EU. Yup, your argument makes real sense.

I suspect Baboons point refers to Brits being in Switzerland as part of the EU as opposed being subject to non-EU quotas.

[Don Molina]

	Quote:	Phos
	These pronouncements by these people are not really worth as much as they would like you to think. I believe Hollande said similar things, and Obama threatened the UK by putting at "end of the queue". But these guys will be gone in a little while. Do they seriously think they can outlast the UK? It is ridiculous hubris. The UK will continue to trade with Europe, and people will continue to live and work across borders, I assure you.

Nobody said they will stop.

This is the kind of BULLSHIT arguments that made Brexit happened. Sensationalist, not bringing something to the table, and utterly beyond the freaking point.


Nobody in the history of mankind said that trade or immigration will stop.



THE ARGUMENT IS THAT IS IT WILL BECOME LESS EFFICIENT, MORE EXPENSIVE AND THAT IT WILL PROBABLY HURT THE FREAKING ECONOMY.

That is a fact

Now.

There is a negotiation coming. One big dog, and a proud but small dog. The small dog, doesn't have much to offer, and certainly needs the big dog more than the other way round.
Do you think it really matters who sits on the table representing each dog?

Sizes won't change. Dynamics won't change.
The UK doesn't have as much power as they would like to think they have.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	again, sarcasm got lost at EF

I got yours -- not too sure that Noth did, though. And we still don't know what "the MEI" is (or what it has to do with Brexit).

	Quote:	baboon
	Never ever overestimate the ability of EFers (and almost everyone else) to totally misunderstand statistics.

Zackly. 12 out of 10 EFers don't even know what a ratio is.

[Samaire13]

I admit I'm a bit torn between amusement and disbelief. I remember all those lovely discussions, headlines and whatnot about the racist cherry-picking Swiss... And the first chance they get, off the British go... I also think that if the likes of Germany and France were given the same chance now, they would go just as fast.

Admittedly, I never thought it would pass, though I expected it to be a close call. Imo, this is the beginning of the end of the EU, which never worked properly as a political construct - good idea, bad implementation.

In the short term, this was an absolutely terrible decision. In the long run, it may not be such a disaster.

The bigger question to ask is why these populist campaigns seem to work, anywhere that is. And instead of fighting symptoms, maybe the root causes should be addressed for once.

[baboon]

	Quote:	22 yards
	I got yours -- not too sure that Noth did, though. And we still don't know what "the MEI" is (or what it has to do with Brexit).

I guess MassenEinwanderungs Initiative

[MidfieldGeneral]

Brexit would never have happened had it not been for Camo's rubbish campaign and the arrogance with which Labour have treated their voting base.

Even in defeat, Keith Vaz shows how arrogant and deluded he is:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7099281.html

[Tassadar]

Some data:

Wales: Leave
England: Leave
Scotland: Remain
Northern Ireland: Remain

HOW AGES VOTED
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

HOW PARTIES VOTED
Tory 43 Remain, 57 Leave
Labour 69 Remain, 31 Leave
Libs 73 Remain, 27 Leave
Ukip: 7 Remain, 93 Leave

Source: https://twitter.com/benrileysmith

	Quote:	baboon
	No. If you are in Switzerland precisely because of the EU free movement provisions (which also apply here) and have now voted to remove that privilege from everyone else in your position in the future you have yourself lost the moral right to continue to benefit from that arrangement. As was explained in Odile's post I quoted.

What if you agree to the free movement of people but object being a member state of a federal EU? You can have one without the other, as Switzerland has proven.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	baboon
	I guess MassenEinwanderungs Initiative

(Actually I was being just a tiny bit sarcastic too... )

[Phos]

	Quote:	Don Molina
	Nobody said they will stop. This is the kind of BULLSHIT arguments that made Brexit happened. Sensationalist, not bringing something to the table, and utterly beyond the freaking point. ... Sizes won't change. Dynamics won't change. The UK doesn't have as much power as they would like to think they have.

I was taking my huge dog for a walk and it was totally terrorised by a very tiny and aggressive chihuahua. It was hilarious, but that is what happens.

So basically, they should be negotiating and trading based on true worth and values. Not artificially massaged and overinflated, nor by political vendettas. This is exactly where things are suppose to be. Not manipulated to suit some people's political careers.

Do you really believe rational people would rather throw the UK under the bus rather than throw someone like Hollande or Juncker under the bus? I think that would only happen if negotiations were conducted by people of the likes of you. Way too much money at stake for political sentiments now.

The bluff has been called.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	baboon
	No. If you are in Switzerland precisely because of the EU free movement provisions (which also apply here) and have now voted to remove that privilege from everyone else in your position in the future you have yourself lost the moral right to continue to benefit from that arrangement. As was explained in Odile's post I quoted.

But according to democratic principles, all Brits that entered CH under EU free movement provisions should leave, as it is the voice of the majority that counts. If not, they have lost the moral right to be a democrat.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	baboon
	No. If you are in Switzerland precisely because of the EU free movement provisions (which also apply here) and have now voted to remove that privilege from everyone else in your position in the future you have yourself lost the moral right to continue to benefit from that arrangement. As was explained in Odile's post I quoted.

No, definitely not. Many of us arrived here before the Free Movement Agreement between Switzerland and the EU came into force. Whether there were quotas for non-EUs before that I can't remember, but specialists and high level positions will still be open to those who qualify. And Switzerland could well reach an agreement with the UK separately to continue to allow free movement of UK and Swiss nationals to each other's countries.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	baboon
	No. If you are in Switzerland precisely because of the EU free movement provisions (which also apply here) and have now voted to remove that privilege from everyone else in your position in the future you have yourself lost the moral right to continue to benefit from that arrangement. As was explained in Odile's post I quoted.

Why would they have to leave? 1.9% of them could either secure Swiss citizenship or leave, then it would be representative.




Or do you think that the overwhelming majority should go?

	Quote:	MidfieldGeneral
	Brexit would never have happened had it not been for Camo's rubbish campaign and the arrogance with which Labour have treated their voting base.

Labour generally behaved completely indifferent during the whole campaign. Corbyn is starting to take some flack for that this morning.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	But according to democratic principles, all Brits that entered CH under EU free movement provisions should leave, as it is the voice of the majority that counts. If not, they have lost the moral right to be a democrat.

Why? Because a change of something now has to be retroactively applied?

It's a bit like changing the speed limit on a road and then prosecuting everyone who drove over that limit in the proceeding 25 years.

In case anyone missed the memo, the UK is still in the EU and will remain in the EU for the immediate future. The negotiations will take quite a while - and afterwards very little will change.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	But according to democratic principles, all Brits that entered CH under EU free movement provisions should leave, as it is the voice of the majority that counts. If not, they have lost the moral right to be a democrat.

That is beyond ridiculous logic.

[curley]

wtf is Donald Trump doing in Scottland?!

[lewton]

Congrats to England and Wales.