The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	...which very much still doesn't say (and what you are implying) that he could simply rock up fresh of the plane from Romania and claim child benefit there and then. Regulations and other rulings make it clear this is not the case; what this actually says is that once he has been employed in Ireland and contributed, then he cannot be discriminated against because of his nationality. As to your second sentence - that is simply your massive prejudice speaking. You don't know.

I remember a similar discussion when Loz was proved wrong with numbers, as he never consulted statistics actually and he still kept reiterating his own prejudices.
First of all, the law is very clear - you can't claim child benefit if you don't provide a work contract. It's like here. I suggest anyone who speaks out of their arse to check the statistics first....they might have some huge surprises...;-)

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Wait up. The guy is in Ireland, his children in another EU state. The ruling is that the children in the other EU state should be entitled to Irish family benefits (as if they were living in Ireland). Makes sense actually.

It's the same here in Switzerland. My UK work colleague is divorced with two kids living in Dorset, back in the UK, with his ex wife. He gets child benefit here in Switzerland.

HR sorted him out with it as soon as he arrived here so hadn't actually contributed anything into the Swiss economy.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I’m not interested in the individual case, so he was employed for six years then unemployed for the next six. Probably once he realised how much he could make by not working. I was however rather more concerned by the ruling.

To remind us

	Quote:
	The ruling is that the children in the other EU state should be entitled to Irish family benefits (as if they were living in Ireland).

Without this ruling he could have simply brought his children to Ireland and claimed Irish family benefits; then there would be higher costs for the State like free education, medicine.....
I do not see your concern?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	Of course, there are many anomalies. If people who want to improve the lot of their families move to countries with better family benefits then should we blame them or blame the lack of uniformity across the EU? It is not so black and white, moving to a country with better family benefits likely means the cost of living is also higher so the net benefit may not be so good. As someone already posted, Swiss people who go to work in EU countries and later retire here are likely to have much smaller pensions than the "stay-at-homes"!

People don't move for family benefits, otherwise they would have never moved to countries like Italy or Spain. They move for work. I find it extremely insulting to single out entire nation(s) because of some cases that were possible due to lack of adequate checks and some loopholes in a specific administrative system.

	Quote:	greenmount
	People don't move for family benefits, otherwise they would have never gone to Italy or Spain. They move for work. I find it extremely insulting to single out an entire nation because of some cases that were possible due to lack of adequate checks and some loopholes in a specific administrative system.

I think that highlights a good point - in the end, how many people are actually in this situation, i.e. worked only a number of years, family abroad, claiming child benefit during a period of unemployment?

Are, for example in this case, Irish nationals working/unemployed abroad also "helping themselves" (to use Loz's words) to child benefit in their current EU residence?

A statistic for this would be interesting and probably a whole lot less dramatic as the legalese-stylie link would have everyone wetting their beds over.

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	I think that highlights a good point - in the end, how many people are actually in this situation, i.e. worked only a number of years, family abroad, claiming child benefit during a period of unemployment? Are, for example in this case, Irish nationals working/unemployed abroad also "helping themselves" (to use Loz's words) to child benefit in their current EU residence? A statistic for this would be interesting and probably a whole lot less dramatic as the legalese-stylie link would have everyone wetting their beds over.

I don't think they are as many as some people like to fantasise. What is really annoying is when people talk without knowing the real situation.
First of all, immigration from East to West (or South in my country's case due to similarities in language and culture) has started long before free movement of people, and it was actually massive before all those "rights" and "freedoms" were in place, which basically contradicts all the narrative and pseudo-theories some people have.

[bigblue2]

it would be a logistical nightmare to work in one country but have to claim family allowance from another, and open to huge amounts of fraud, not to mention the language barriers, average romanian civil servant isn't going to understand a word average irish civil servant is saying and vice versa.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	HR sorted him out with it as soon as he arrived here so hadn't actually contributed anything into the Swiss economy.

Except for having an employment contract...

[greenmount]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Except for having an employment contract...

It's the same rule in Ireland. What is not yet clear to you?

	Quote:	bigblue2
	it would be a logistical nightmare to work in one country but have to claim family allowance from another, and open to huge amounts of fraud, not to mention the language barriers, average romanian civil servant isn't going to understand a word average irish civil servant is saying and vice versa.

If you extend it to its logical conclusion - if I go and work in France, it would be ridiculous to expect me to seek medical care in the UK. Everything has to be reciprocal, or it is daft.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The EU court of justice just ruled that it’s perfectly acceptable to move to another EU country and help yourself to their family benefits. No employment required.

If it wasn't dead already (I think it was) that's the death knell for the EU-CH institutional framework.

Ok, back to Brexit.

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	greenmount
	People don't move for family benefits, otherwise they would have never moved to countries like Italy or Spain. They move for work. I find it extremely insulting to single out entire nation(s) because of some cases that were possible due to lack of adequate checks and some loopholes in a specific administrative system.

It's quite a tidy sum in Germany:


https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft...29706511c.html

	Quote:	rainer_d
	It's quite a tidy sum in Germany: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft...29706511c.html

€194... I'm not sure that would be enough to persuade parents to move to another country with the express intention of ripping off that country's social support system.

	Quote:	rainer_d
	It's quite a tidy sum in Germany: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft...29706511c.html

About 2m Germans live outside Germany in the EU - presumably a number of them can and will be claiming similar benefits in their host countries - perhaps a netted figure would be more helpful?

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	greenmount
	It's the same rule in Ireland. What is not yet clear to you?

Nothing. It is the same. I just wanted to point out that this is an employment related benefit, to which the person of course should be entitled.


The "not having contributed" in Sandgrounder's posts implies something different.

[rainer_d]

It doesn't make sense for you.
But if you mount a fraudulent operation where you bring in people from ...elsewhere, give them fake contracts with minimum pay, have them pay a lot of rent in your own run-down apartments and have them apply for all kinds of benefits, it may make sense.


I'm sure it makes sense for those behind the fraud.


This is not too common - but it's concentrated in some cities and not really helpful for improving the picture of those nation's citizens.


Legally, it's all perfectly OK.
But obviously, the laws were never meant to pay for these cases - and that's why countries with high cost of livings advocate to only pay what would be paid in the country where the kids actually live. This removes the incentive for these kinds of schemes.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	rainer_d
	But obviously, the laws were never meant to pay for these cases - and that's why countries with high cost of livings advocate to only pay what would be paid in the country where the kids actually live. This removes the incentive for these kinds of schemes.

All politicians from the new EU member countries oppose to this proposal i.e. to pay only for kids residing in the country where one of the parents works (you can check out - Poland, Hungary, all or almost all of them) I think the social fraud "schemes" can be easily dismantled if you have better filters. I used to agree with paying only for kids residing in a specific country, but then I was brought some quite valid arguments against my opinion and I can see why this proposal will be (probably) rejected. Or it will come with a similar concession in exchange.

	Quote:	greenmount
	All politicians from the new EU member countries oppose to this proposal i.e. to pay only for kids residing in that country. I think the "schemes" can be easily dismantled. I tend to agree with paying only for kids residing in country, but then I was brought quite valid arguments against my opinion and I can see why this proposal will be (probably) rejected. Or it will come with a similar concession in exchange.

I think you've slightly misunderstood the proposal here. The idea (to take the original case of an employee in Ireland with kids in Romania) would be that the country of employment (so Ireland in this case) would still pay the child benefit but only at the rate they would receive in Romania.

The problem is then for countries with low child benefit and cost of living rates having to potentially pay higher child benefit in the reverse situation.

[marton]

	Quote:
	I think you've slightly misunderstood the proposal here. The idea (to take the original case of an employee in Ireland with kids in Romania) would be that the country of employment (so Ireland in this case) would still pay the child benefit but only at the rate they would receive in Romania. The problem is then for countries with low child benefit and cost of living rates having to potentially pay higher child benefit in the reverse situation.

Sounds like an administrative nightmare; every EU country has to rewrite the software that pays out benefits to manage multiple different rates plus extra people needed to keep the benefit rates up to date and for non euro countries to track the currency exchange rates.
Also the qualification rules for different benefits likely change from country to country
Plus how do you prove which country the kids are living in anyway?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	Sounds like an administrative nightmare; every EU country has to rewrite the software that pays out benefits to manage multiple different rates plus extra people needed to keep the benefit rates up to date and for non euro countries to track the currency exchange rates. Also the qualification rules for different benefits likely change from country to country Plus how do you prove which country the kids are living in anyway?

How do you prove which country? Where do they go to school or kindergarten, or whatever. Where is their GP registered. Where do they have their vaccines done. There are plenty of ways....

I think most folks think this way - if I pay taxes in a country I want all those social benefits too, otherwise please let me pay taxes back home where you propose to have my social benefits adjusted to...the funny part is that wouldn't always work in their favour because some countries have higher taxes than others.