The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Fish Paste]

	Quote:
	...and what it doesn't say is that you can just turn up and get. Coz you can't. Every member state has entitlement rules whichprevent that until you legally become a permanent resident . Once you are legally resident then they rightly are prevented from discrimination.

And it’s points like this that should have formed the backbone of the debate.
People can’t just rock up and get money and a free 3 bed house.

Brexit ( I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again) is a failure of governemnt/civil service to debunk these kind of lies and /or communicate to allay fears.

They should have approached it with the belief that people are thick and the information needs to be painted on the wall.

Real facts were required, and not provided.
The Daily Wail can run a story about Abu Hamza or whoever ( bad example, he was a scrounging, free loading barsteward, and not from the EU) living in an 8 bedroom house, and getting £60k in benefits, without the establishment actually understanding how many people were getting their hackles up, and coming on TV and explaining the system.

The UK is not a pushover to get anything out of the state.
All they needed to do was apply the existing rules rigourously and the Brexit immigration vote would not have been so evident.

Anyway, when one tires of Brexit, one tires of life itself.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Did you read the ruling? It’s literally what it says. Entitlement to family benefit is not dependent on employment. Prove it or it didn’t happen. So this is bollocks. Look at any immigration graph to the UK and see how it exploded after 2004. Remind me what happened then? Average salary in Romania is about €1000, take home is about €500-600. Child benefit in Germany is €200 per child. You do the math. Hand in the kids to granny and grandad while you go off to work in Western Europe has been happening for years.

Romania joined the EU in 2007 so UK immigration graphs for 2004 are not relevant?
In fact people from Bulgaria and Romania only started migrating to the UK in large numbers in 2012.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	You know, I am still waiting to hear a single valid reason for the UK to leave the EU? And even stranger I am still yet to hear of a single positive outcome from the UK leaving the EU. by that I mean how it will benefit the UK in any positive way at all! Go on leavers, enlighten me!

Valid: because the voters wanted it. This is the most valid reason there is in a democracy.
Positive or negative: we'll know in 10 years from now.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Valid: because the voters wanted it. This is the most valid reason there is in a democracy. Positive or negative: we'll know in 10 years from now.

That’s a pretty reckless road to go down; voting for stuff you want but have no idea why. How mad is that reasoning?

That’s not democracy, that’s one stop short of a tantrum.

	Quote:
	That’s a pretty reckless road to go down; voting for stuff you want but have no idea why. How mad is that reasoning? That’s not democracy, that’s one stop short of a tantrum.

I don't agree. People obviously voted leave because they expect it will bring a better future. In many years, it will be considered as either a bold or a stupid decision. We'll see.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Valid: because the voters wanted it. This is the most valid reason there is in a democracy.

How deep and meaningful, thanks. It helps a lot- I get it now.

Apart that to me Democracy is not normally based, on lies, fraud and a lot more. And the UK is a very weird 'Parliamentary Democracy'- but now Leavers who were desperate to get their very own Sovereingty back - actually don't want it at all.

And they complained about EU rules, that our ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES help put together at the top table, and which which they could have stopped.
And they want WTO to be in charge- please remind me- when are the next elections for the WTO - never seen any.

Weird that.

[Fish Paste]

If anyone is interested, JRM is on LBC now doing a phone in.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Prove it or it didn’t happen.

I am not going to dig into some old threads but you're habitually proven wrong here and you still keep going. Why bother? You're a lost cause, Loz. I tried to understand your narrative but in the end I failed miserably. I have no idea what you want and what you want to debate. UK will be out of EU sooner or later, that should make you happy.
UK needs immigrants because there are a lot of companies that need cheap(er) labour. So that will not stop any time soon. I don't even think it's a bad thing for UK, it's a bad thing for those countries that workers are leaving. Your ing child money is a joke argument. There are other things that go off the radar and are by far more costly for some countries - free movement of capital and goods for instance.
Anyway, if you work in say Germany and you pay taxes in Germany you should get what everyone else is getting there. Someone from a non-EU country is getting those benefits, why not EU citizens? Is anyone saying - oh, let's not give child benefits to say someone from "Uruguay" because in their country this is much lower or it doesn't exist....of course not. Your argument is something along the line - in some EU countries salaries are lower and social benefits are lower than in the others! The outrage! If you need immigrants from EU you have to treat them like you treat those from non-EU, that would be a good start as far as 2-3 EU countries are concerned. Trust me, people will be happy to see their rights are equal with someone's from a non-EU country...bet you don't know this side of the story, don't you. I am against the idea that some EU citizens should have less rights than the others. If you want that, go in politics, get in the European Parliament and say it out loud, bring your arguments - explain why someone who is working in Germany and paying taxes in Germany shouldn't get say child benefits there. I wish you good luck!

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Valid: because the voters wanted it. This is the most valid reason there is in a democracy. Positive or negative: we'll know in 10 years from now.

It was a completely fraudulent referendum, because it was grossly manipulated. Not a single issue that was raised as a reason for leaving has panned out to be true. Not a single one. FMF and his billions in pensions is utter nonsense, please show us the data. I wonder why FMF is so concerned about this, seeing he doesn't intend to live in the UK and has made a small fortune in stock and shares and sees nothing wrong in a little bit of tax loopholing for the wealthy.

https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/

But lets screw these peoples pensions while we are at it:

https://www.professionalpensions.com...rexit-scenario

	Quote:	TobiasM
	It was a completely fraudulent referendum, because it was grossly manipulated. Not a single issue that was raised as a reason for leaving has panned out to be true. Not a single one. FMF and his billions in pensions is utter nonsense, please show us the data. I wonder why FMF is so concerned about this, seeing he doesn't intend to live in the UK and has made a small fortune in stock and shares and sees nothing wrong in a little bit of tax loopholing for the wealthy. https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/ But lets screw these peoples pensions while we are at it: https://www.professionalpensions.com...rexit-scenario

I wouldn't worry too much about the pensions. Debts and youth unemployment are way more dangerous.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I wouldn't worry too much about the pensions. Debts and youth unemployment are way more dangerous.

And likely to worsen in a post Brexit Britain, but who'd thunk that?

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I wouldn't worry too much about the pensions. Debts and youth unemployment are way more dangerous.

You bloody well would worry about it if you were totally reliant on your UK pension

[John William]

	Quote:	Fish Paste
	If anyone is interested, JRM is on LBC now doing a phone in.

I cannot think of anything more boring, nevertheless it will be a revelation to see JRM, starkers debating
with that Cambridge economics professor in the nude about the dangers to the British economy with Brexit !!

At least it will smash JRM's image of being the living embodiment of Sir Anthony Eden but without the moustache.

[Blueangel]

Kate Hoey's been served on Twitter

Guy Verhofstadt‏Verified account @guyverhofstadt
Hi @KateHoeyMP, thanks for the feedback. Actually, I was elected by my constituents with over 500k votes. Imagine an elected MP campaigning on Europe, not knowing that MEPs are elected?
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/s...02106069745664

(you need to open the link to see the post this was in response to)

And, it's been followed by this...

Leo Varadkar - Taoiseach‏ @complainforleo 6h6 hours ago
Replying to @guyverhofstadt @KateHoeyMP
Facts mean nothing to these people.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Kate Hoey's been served on Twitter Guy Verhofstadt‏Verified account @guyverhofstadt Hi @KateHoeyMP, thanks for the feedback. Actually, I was elected by my constituents with over 500k votes. Imagine an elected MP campaigning on Europe, not knowing that MEPs are elected? https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/s...02106069745664 (you need to open the link to see the post this was in response to) And, it's been followed by this... Leo Varadkar - Taoiseach‏ @complainforleo 6h6 hours ago Replying to @guyverhofstadt @KateHoeyMP Facts mean nothing to these people.

Nice sequence of tweets. But, erm, you do realise that @complainforleo is a parody account, don't you?

[Clocker]

	Quote:
	You bloody well would worry about it if you were totally reliant on your UK pension

But most here will have pensions from other countries including Switzerland as presumably they work here or their spouses do.
Anyone relying solely on a UK pension is surely either in the UK or in a country where the cost of living is lower than in the UK.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Clocker
	Anyone relying solely on a UK pension is surely either in the UK or in a country where the cost of living is lower than in the UK.

Or called Odile.

	Quote:	greenmount
	I am not going to dig into some old threads but you're habitually proven wrong here and you still keep going. Why bother? You're a lost cause, Loz. I tried to understand your narrative but in the end I failed miserably. I have no idea what you want and what you want to debate. UK will be out of EU sooner or later, that should make you happy. UK needs immigrants because there are a lot of companies that need cheap(er) labour. So that will not stop any time soon. I don't even think it's a bad thing for UK, it's a bad thing for those countries that workers are leaving. Your ing child money is a joke argument. There are other things that go off the radar and are by far more costly for some countries - free movement of capital and goods for instance. Anyway, if you work in say Germany and you pay taxes in Germany you should get what everyone else is getting there. Someone from a non-EU country is getting those benefits, why not EU citizens? Is anyone saying - oh, let's not give child benefits to say someone from "Uruguay" because in their country this is much lower or it doesn't exist....of course not. Your argument is something along the line - in some EU countries salaries are lower and social benefits are lower than in the others! The outrage! If you need immigrants from EU you have to treat them like you treat those from non-EU, that would be a good start as far as 2-3 EU countries are concerned. Trust me, people will be happy to see their rights are equal with someone's from a non-EU country...bet you don't know this side of the story, don't you. I am against the idea that some EU citizens should have less rights than the others. If you want that, go in politics, get in the European Parliament and say it out loud, bring your arguments - explain why someone who is working in Germany and paying taxes in Germany shouldn't get say child benefits there. I wish you good luck!

You are doing a Blueangel and arguing against a point I wasn’t making. I have consistently said on here that I have no problem with FMOP and people should be able to work in other countries (just send a CV first). What I don’t agree with however is the right to take advantage of another country’s benefits system.

[Troublawesome]

I filtered Loz after reading his first 10 posts of incoherent nonsense, flamebaiting, 0-logic posts. It still baffles me why people spend pages replying to someone like that and don't just ignore all together. There are quite a few posters worth replying to here, seems a waste of space and turns the thread into spam to reply to someone who consistently is proven wrong and continues with false arguments or cut out lies.


Unfortunately many of you still quote him so I am forced to see his posts that way...please let the trolls out of the conversation.

[Clocker]

	Quote:
	You bloody well would worry about it if you were totally reliant on your UK pension

	Quote:	Clocker
	But most here will have pensions from other countries including Switzerland as presumably they work here or their spouses do. Anyone relying solely on a UK pension is surely either in the UK or in a country where the cost of living is lower than in the UK.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Or called Odile.

Well unless you have a huge Swiss pension and/or substantial wealth already in CHF, Switzerland is clearly not the country to retire in.
Pensions are also heavily taxed here, so another financial disadvantage on top of the cost of living itself.

In Germany for example pensions are only partially taxed and won't be fully taxed until 2040. No wonder so many Swiss have moved there. I'm sure there are other countries where this is the case.

https://bazonline.ch/basel/stadt/ein...28900358?track
https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/gesells...ch-zu/43611206
https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/schwe...er-127065.html