The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	Interpretation is in the eyes of the beholder... and you have always proudly said that your are a conservative- or a Tory. Were you one when you voted for Brexit? And what are you now? Of course, you don't need to answer. I myself feel politically homeless at the moment.

I was actually referring to Messrs Tusk and Johnson - both of whom, in different circumstances, would proudly stand alongside each other waving the flag of neoliberalism.

But a fair question deserves a fair answer: yes, I had long considered myself a conservative, although I've mostly tended to vote Labour for pragmatic reasons. I flirted with some libertarian ideas for a while, but it was Brexit which finally stuck the boot into many of my long-cherished notions - or, rather, it was the reading and thinking which I did in the run-up to voting in the referendum.

More than anything, it was the democratic deficit which disturbed me about the EU - but when I followed my thinking through, I couldn't help but notice that the UK itself suffers from a similar deficit. Of course, the effect is less pronounced when the voters are so much closer to their representatives, but the existence of the House of Lords and an unelected Head of State stands in complete opposition to everything I came to believe in.

Add to that my disquiet with the austerity programme, my developing understanding of foreign affairs, and the fact that it is pretty clear that my people are being shafted in all kinds of directions, and I'd say that these days I'm probably more left wing than most of the contributors to this thread. Except that socialism doesn't work. And I cannot stand state interference in people's personal lives. And my views on matters such as drug liberalisation, abortion and marriage are so full of contradictions that I wouldn't even know where to begin forming a solid enough opinion to choose someone to vote for.

So I won't. I've retired from politics. It's a luxury I have no time for anyway. There's enough politics on EF and another couple of local UK forums I follow to get the general gist of what's going on, and apart from throwing the odd stone in the pool, I don't have much to contribute any more.

I don't think anyone's going to miss my vote!

	Quote:	bowlie
	Really? Are you sure?

Yup, and while we’re at it, let’s remind ourselves of some other fantastic advise the CBI offered up 20 years ago.

CBI presses for firm euro entry date

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Really? Are you sure?

I think I can explain Loz's 'confusion'...

	Quote:
	Revealed: the CBI receives millions from the EU and public bodies

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/...ic_bodies.html

These 'facts' were repeated in The Sun

From the CBI...

	Quote:
	Does the CBI get money from the EU to promote it? No. We are funded by subscriptions from our membership and do not have to promote the EU. In fact our members expect us to speak out against harmful European legislation on business, as we often do. We regularly represent our members in Brussels and occasionally cooperate with our equivalent sister federations in other European countries. Why do you receive money from the European Commission then? The CBI conducts a number of monthly and quarterly economic surveys of businesses, on manufacturing, retail, and service sectors, which are an important bellwether of UK business and economic trends. These surveys are used by the European Commission to enable it to collect robust European-wide economic data, as it does from all the 28 EU member states. As part of this, the CBI takes part in a competitive tendering process (every 4 years) to provide data on the UK economy on a regular basis, and as a result the European Commission currently contributes to some of the financing of these economic surveys. This amounts to approximately £140,000 this year, representing around 0.6% of our annual income. It is a measure of the reliability of our data that we are able to do this, and any money received in this way is ring-fenced for this purpose. The CBI also sells its economic data to other leading organisations including: Bloomberg Thomson Reuters Factset Haver Analytics Macrobond Global Insight We also receive small reimbursements for travel to attend European Social Dialogue meetings.

http://www.cbi.org.uk/business-issue...tions/faqs-eu/

[John William]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	EU funded CBI repeats Brexit will be bad for the umpteenth time. Gound breaking

So Here we go again, happy as can be as we can dismiss any constructive
discussion or opinions about the video under the Project Fear, conspiracy theory mantra as usual !!

In fact my mate reckons theirs no such thing as Global Warming as it's all a pack of lies for
the benefit of tree huggers !!

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I think I can explain Loz's 'confusion'... http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/...ic_bodies.html These 'facts' were repeated in The Sun From the CBI... http://www.cbi.org.uk/business-issue...tions/faqs-eu/

Thanks for confirming.

Not directly Brexit related, but what's this simmering conflict between Italy and France? I just learnt that the French ambassador to Rome has been recalled.

Bit abnormal, no?

	Quote:
	Not directly Brexit related, but what's this simmering conflict between Italy and France? I just learnt that the French ambassador to Rome has been recalled. Bit abnormal, no?

Italian officials had meeting with representatives of the Gillets Jaune movement and then made noises in the press afterwards

[Medea Fleecestealer]

"A diplomatic row between France and Italy has deepened, with France complaining of "unfounded attacks and outlandish claims" by Italian leaders.

France recalled its ambassador to Italy for talks on Thursday, saying the situation was "unprecedented" since the end of World War Two.

It comes after Italian Deputy PM Luigi Di Maio met French "yellow-vest" protesters near Paris on Tuesday.

France warned him not to interfere in the country's politics.

Relations between the two countries - both founding members of the EU - have been tense since Italy's populist Five Star Movement and right-wing League party formed a coalition government in June 2018.

The two governments have clashed over a range of issues, including immigration."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47161500

[baboon]

	Quote:
	Not directly Brexit related, but what's this simmering conflict between Italy and France? I just learnt that the French ambassador to Rome has been recalled. Bit abnormal, no?

All about the Gilet Jaune idiots.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-jaunes-figure

	Quote:
	Not directly Brexit related, but what's this simmering conflict between Italy and France? I just learnt that the French ambassador to Rome has been recalled. Bit abnormal, no?

Yet another example that the veneer covering the EU’s “united front” is fast being removed.

[baboon]

	Quote:
	It implies that a free-market right-winger who supports Viktor Orban and opposes abortion on demand and euthanasia is ok, just as long as he's rude about Brexit.

Well liberal/soft right and - at least in recent times and according to public pronouncements - not an Orban supporter. But you're right on the other two.

Which doesn't make him OK. Except and specifically on Brexit.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yet another example that the veneer covering the EU’s “united front” is fast being removed.

SFA to do with Brexit and who said everyone has to agree on everything else?

	Quote:	baboon
	SFA to do with Brexit and who said everyone has to agree on everything else?

If it was sparked by the GJ movement, then it obviously has quite a lot to do with Brexit.

It's all a bit worrying.

[marton]

	Quote:
	If it was sparked by the GJ movement, then it obviously has quite a lot to do with Brexit. It's all a bit worrying.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is rather a tenuous link?

It is a bit strong to describe the GJs as a movement; in fact there are a lot of different and opposing factions making conflicting demands. Some of the factional differences are so strong they have started fighting each other in the streets, like in Lyon last Saturday!

Now there are even environmental "yellow jackets," contradicting the original protesters' demands to scrap a new eco-tax.

Last December Interior Minister Christophe Castaner said "These past three weeks have seen the birth of a monster that has escaped its creators,"

However I agree there are similarities to Brexit like the inspired lying. For example, Macron is preparing to sign a United Nations agreement to allow 480 million more immigrants into Europe; reminds one of BJ and the 100 million Turks.

	Quote:
	Add to that my disquiet with the austerity programme, my developing understanding of foreign affairs, and the fact that it is pretty clear that my people are being shafted in all kinds of directions, and I'd say that these days I'm probably more left wing than most of the contributors to this thread. Except that socialism doesn't work. And I cannot stand state interference in people's personal lives. And my views on matters such as drug liberalisation, abortion and marriage are so full of contradictions that I wouldn't even know where to begin forming a solid enough opinion to choose someone to vote for.

It’s a good thing you’re in Switzerland then where one has the ability to vote on individual topics that don’t follow party lines. And to think there are still people on here who believe that referendums are wrong and that the plebs are too stupid to be trusted to vote on such important matters.

It’s the 21st century, we’re in the Information Age. We don’t need politicians to “represent” us, we just need more referendums. Parliamentary democracy is dead. If Brexit has shown us anything it’s just how party/lobby driven Westminster is and each and every one of 650 of the self serving wankers should be sacked.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It’s a good thing you’re in Switzerland then

It would be even better if I were Swiss!

Maybe in my next life...

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	marton
	It is a bit strong to describe the GJs as a movement; in fact there are a lot of different and opposing factions making conflicting demands.

The same counts for both Brexiters and Remainers.

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The same counts for both Brexiters and Remainers.

I agree about Brexiters but surely "Remain" is remain; no conflicting demands, the status quo?

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It’s a good thing you’re in Switzerland then where one has the ability to vote on individual topics that don’t follow party lines. And to think there are still people on here who believe that referendums are wrong and that the plebs are too stupid to be trusted to vote on such important matters. It’s the 21st century, we’re in the Information Age. We don’t need politicians to “represent” us, we just need more referendums. Parliamentary democracy is dead. If Brexit has shown us anything it’s just how party/lobby driven Westminster is and each and every one of 650 of the self serving wankers should be sacked.

For someone who labels Remainers as moaners you sure do moan a lot

[22 yards]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yet another example that the veneer covering the EU’s “united front” is fast being removed.

Indeed. The European "Union" is nothing compared to the steadfastly United Kingdom of Great Britain (including Scotland and England, at the moment) and Northern Ireland.