The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	Indeed. The European "Union" is nothing compared to the steadfastly United Kingdom of Great Britain (including Scotland and England, at the moment) and Northern Ireland.

The sooner that union is dissolved the better, too!

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It’s a good thing you’re in Switzerland then where one has the ability to vote on individual topics that don’t follow party lines. And to think there are still people on here who believe that referendums are wrong and that the plebs are too stupid to be trusted to vote on such important matters. It’s the 21st century, we’re in the Information Age. We don’t need politicians to “represent” us, we just need more referendums. Parliamentary democracy is dead. If Brexit has shown us anything it’s just how party/lobby driven Westminster is and each and every one of 650 of the self serving wankers should be sacked.

I'm very much with you on the representative democracy thing. To my mind, it is always the way to go - the UK's system is hideously outmoded.

I think where we are going to disagree is on the information available to the people. If you have one referendum a generation / lifetime, there's no way you are going to be as au fait with the system and where to gather information from, as if you have about 5 every two months, with nice info packs.

The solution was probably to have a year of regular referenda on minor topics prior to Brexit like how often to put bins out or more cycle lanes etc so people got a feel for it, rather than using adverts on buses for info.

Obv, our parliament is clearly going to be dead against such a revolution as it probably puts them out of a job / curtails their overlord abilities.

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	At one time I did consider retiring in Germany but I did some research including joining the EF companion forum toytown in Germany and basically there were more cons than pros. I understand the German lower taxes on pensions only fully applies to people who moved before 2005. Overall the best solution seems to be to live in Switzerland and take advantage of the lower % taxes and lower % mortgages but near the German border so one can shop at lower prices; even better prices than the Germans themselves because of the tax refunds.

There are plenty of countries out there where your pension money will get you far more than in Switzerland, even taking into account higher taxes.


The best reason to stay in Switzerland is because you like it here.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	And to think there are still people on here who believe that referendums are wrong and that the plebs are too stupid to be trusted to vote on such important matters.

It's not a question of being too stupid - we can't all be experts in everything.

How many people here vote in a referendum without clearly understanding all or any of the issues?

How many vote thinking they understand the issues - but clearly don't?

How many don't vote because they don't have enough time to understand all the issues?


My Swiss wife doesn't vote in a lot of referendums here because she feels she can't often give enough time to understand the issues she's been asked to vote on.

The other issue with direct democracy is that people can vote selfishly - without thinking (or caring about) the effect on future generations or those less fortunate than themselves.

I'm not saying that direct democracy is a bad thing as on balance, it appears to be working here but it's not without its faults.

	Quote:
	I don't think anyone's going to miss my vote!

a bit late though, in this case. You and others did vote- for leave - and now have left - like Cameron- and without having to face the consequences.

	Quote:
	a bit late though, in this case. You and others did vote- for leave - and now have left - like Cameron- and without having to face the consequences.

You asked a straight question, which I answered in good faith. If that's all you have to say in response, it speaks volumes about your attitude.

	Quote:
	The sooner that union is dissolved the better, too!

Would be interested to know how you envisage the future in that respect.

A United Ireland ? and which side would it be, EU, or UK?
(I think you need to go and have a word with my sil from Armagh on this one ...)

With Scotland added?

and Wales perhaps?

Pray tell.

	Quote:
	Would be interested to know how you envisage the future in that respect. A United Ireland ? and which side would it be, EU, or UK? (I think you need to go and have a word with my sil from Armagh on this one ...) With Scotland added? and Wales perhaps? Pray tell.

Why should I answer any of your questions after the contemptuous resonse you gave my last answer?

Forget it, Odile. This is just about petty point scoring for you.

Absolutely and not at all. I would ask anyone the same question.

Voting = consequences. People say 'no taxation without representation- and I think it is fairer to say 'no representation without consequences' - not just for you- but for anyone, here, there or anywhere.

As for the Union being split - surely if you say it needs splitting- it is quite fair to ask how you would envisage it.

Oh look, I'm being lectured by a naturalised Brit with two passports.

[bigblue2]

	Quote:
	Absolutely and not at all. I would ask anyone the same question. Voting = consequences. People say 'no taxation without representation- and I think it is fairer to say 'no representation without consequences' - not just for you- but for anyone, here, there or anywhere. As for the Union being split - surely if you say it needs splitting- it is quite fair to ask how you would envisage it.

its already split, england, scotland, wales, ireland you want to add some more splits? norfolk could be split out - they are weird over there, cornwall also seem to want to be spun out.

[marton]

	Quote:	bigblue2
	its already split, england, scotland, wales, ireland you want to add some more splits? norfolk could be split out - they are weird over there, cornwall also seem to want to be spun out.

You missed out the Viking North East

[amogles]

	Quote:	Tom1234
	It's not a question of being too stupid - we can't all be experts in everything. How many people here vote in a referendum without clearly understanding all or any of the issues? How many vote thinking they understand the issues - but clearly don't? How many don't vote because they don't have enough time to understand all the issues?

From various conversations I've had with my councillors back in the UK, both those I voted for and those I didn't vote for, I didn't have the impression they understood all issues as well as they should to be able to vote on them.

	Quote:	Tom1234
	The other issue with direct democracy is that people can vote selfishly - without thinking (or caring about) the effect on future generations or those less fortunate than themselves.

Happens in representative democracies too.

	Quote:	Tom1234
	It's not a question of being too stupid - we can't all be experts in everything. How many people here vote in a referendum without clearly understanding all or any of the issues? How many vote thinking they understand the issues - but clearly don't? How many don't vote because they don't have enough time to understand all the issues? My Swiss wife doesn't vote in a lot of referendums here because she feels she can't often give enough time to understand the issues she's been asked to vote on. The other issue with direct democracy is that people can vote selfishly - without thinking (or caring about) the effect on future generations or those less fortunate than themselves. I'm not saying that direct democracy is a bad thing as on balance, it appears to be working here but it's not without its faults.

I agree that this only happens in direct democracies. In represented democracies, every voter understands what parties and candidates stand for and also people don't vote selfishly but choose whatever is best for everybody.

	Quote:	Tom1234
	The other issue with direct democracy is that people can vote selfishly - without thinking (or caring about) the effect on future generations or those less fortunate than themselves.

On balance, who do you feel you would vote more closely with the interests of your children and grandchildren? You who wants the best for them, or an MP desperately scrabbling for votes to get into a more senior position/keep their job 3 or 4 years from now?

[amogles]

	Quote:
	On balance, who do you feel you would vote more closely with the interests of your children and grandchildren? You who wants the best for them, or an MP desperately scrabbling for votes to get into a more senior position/keep their job 3 or 4 years from now?

Or how about abolishing the whole voting shebang and trusting a beveolent and altruistic dictator, you know, like Assad, who always has the best interests of everybody besides himself in mind at all times.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:
	On balance, who do you feel you would vote more closely with the interests of your children and grandchildren? You who wants the best for them, or an MP desperately scrabbling for votes to get into a more senior position/keep their job 3 or 4 years from now?

Who would you think would provide a policy of better preventative healthcare for your children, a representative democracy advised by a panel of healthcare professionals and scientists, or your neighbours?

Who would better understand a country's future energy requirements and the pros and cons of each time of fuel source - a representative democracy advised by a panel of engineers and scientists, or your neighbours?

It works both ways.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	Tom1234
	Who would you think would provide a policy of better preventative healthcare for your children, a representative democracy advised by a panel of healthcare professionals and scientists, or your neighbours? Who would better understand a country's future energy requirements and the pros and cons of each time of fuel source - a representative democracy advised by a panel of engineers and scientists, or your neighbours? It works both ways.

My neighbors.

Tom

	Quote:	Tom1234
	Who would you think would provide a policy of better preventative healthcare for your children, a representative democracy advised by a panel of healthcare professionals and scientists, or your neighbours? Who would better understand a country's future energy requirements and the pros and cons of each time of fuel source - a representative democracy advised by a panel of engineers and scientists, or your neighbours? It works both ways.

It would work if your scenarios were true. There is no guarantee that governments follow their own advisors on any of these things, they often just see which way the wind is blowing. Since we're in the Brexit thread (think Loz and I will fall out again now, after some mutual loving!), how many MPs are deriding their own advisors' findings, as they present an inconvenient truth for them?

If we have a representative government, then yes, they should be forced to follow official advice, especially on matters of science. Since that doesn't happen, I think you'll be hard pressed to convince anyone that MPs will just vote on "conscience" (read as "expedience") in a rep dem.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:
	It would work if your scenarios were true. There is no guarantee that governments follow their own advisors on any of these things, they often just see which way the wind is blowing. Since we're in the Brexit thread (think Loz and I will fall out again now, after some mutual loving!), how many MPs are deriding their own advisors' findings, as they present an inconvenient truth for them? .

It was partly a trick question.

The Swiss government have used representative democracy in the form of the National Council and Federal Assembly to decide ongoing Nuclear power policy.

The people obviously cannot be trusted in such a difficult and complex decision.
(although there is an initiative to decide on the length of operation of current nuclear power plants (who knew that Frau Mueller, the old lady next door who used to work at Migros was such an expert metallurgist?))