The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	TobiasM
	I do see, but I can't rejoice in the fact that our freedoms post Brexit become more limited. I am still surprised that so many people see the freedom of movement of people in a unified economic area such a threat, and that they would willingly choose to leave the relative stability of that economic and cultural union and lose their rights to participate in its decisions and democratic processes including the loss of their own freedom of movement in order to protect themselves from the threat of foreign intereference and a fluxating migrant workforce.

Please let's not perpetuate the myth of a stable EU. This blindspot towards the dynamic nature of the organisation helps nobody. A vote for Remain was never a vote for the status quo.

	Quote:
	I think some of the Brits on here need to acknowledge their "Anglo privilege". The fact remains that EU or non-EU, people from the United Kingdom are always going to be in a better position than people from less prestigious corners of Europe. I can't imagine such a generous quota being offered to the citizens of Bulgaria or Romania, should they ever find themselves in a position to require one. Perhaps we should quit with the Chicken-Licken act and check our privilege once in a while.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Who the hell ever drives through Liechtenstein?

You stop? Where?

[MusicChick]

The idea of the EU and democratic processes in one sentence....sigh.

	Quote:	Loz1983

"We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories."
-Cecil Rhodes

Sounds like he was a Expansionist EU Remoaner who was happy to use Bulgarian and Romanian labour.

	Quote:
	We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories. -Cecil Rhodes Sounds like he was a Remoaner who was happy to use Bulgarian and Romanian labour.

Here's another one, especially for you:

"Ask any man what nationality he would prefer to be, and ninety nine out of a hundred will tell you that they would prefer to be Englishmen"

- Cecil Rhodes

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Here's another one, especially for you: "Ask any man what nationality he would prefer to be, and ninety nine out of a hundred will tell you that they would prefer to be Englishmen" - Cecil Rhodes

I've never denied being in the 1%

He was definitely a Remainer though, I'm afraid. Just look at his positive opinion of freedom of movement...

"I contend that we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit, the better it is for the human race."

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Here's another one, especially for you: "Ask any man what nationality he would prefer to be, and ninety nine out of a hundred will tell you that they would prefer to be Englishmen" - Cecil Rhodes

Is it still true?

Look at what even a bot told me:

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	I've never denied being in the 1% He was definitely a Remainer though, I'm afraid. Just look at his positive opinion of freedom of movement... "I contend that we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit, the better it is for the human race."

Nobody needs the EU to feel the best. That's too easy.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	"I contend that we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit, the better it is for the human race."

That must have been in the times before the all inclusive resorts

[greenmount]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Nobody needs the EU to feel the best. That's too easy.

Neither to be English or anything else, I hope.

Classic nationalism vs. EU "nationalism" (whatever that is)....nah, not my cup of tea. But each to their own...

	Quote:	Urs Max
	You stop? Where?

Lol, I always planned to visit it but I just couldn't see a reason to stop there.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	I do see, but I can't rejoice in the fact that our freedoms post Brexit become more limited. I am still surprised that so many people see the freedom of movement of people in a unified economic area such a threat, and that they would willingly choose to leave the relative stability of that economic and cultural union and lose their rights to participate in its decisions and democratic processes including the loss of their own freedom of movement in order to protect themselves from the threat of foreign intereference and a fluxating migrant workforce.

3500 permits per year is like all permits for the non-EU together, currently ( I wish I was wrong lol). That was my point.

Of course, I get that there are other more important issues than how many people will be allowed to work here but my post was an observation strictly related to this topic.

Edit- out of curiosity, I did check and I wasn't far from the truth

	Quote:
	On 29 September 2017, the Swiss Federal Council announced an increase of 500 work permit quotas for non-EU/EFTA nationals for the year 2018. The quota for EU/EFTA nationals on assignment (no Swiss employment contract) will increase by 1’000 for L permits and by 250 for B permits in 2018. As of 1 January 2018, the quotas are therefore the following: 4'500 L permits for non-EU/EFTA nationals 3'500 B permits for non-EU/EFTA nationals 3'000 L permits for EU/EFTA nationals 500 B permits for EU/EFTA nationals

https://blogs.deloitte.ch/tax/2017/1...nationals.html

	Quote:	greenmount
	3500 permits per year is like all permits for the non-EU together, currently ( I wish I was wrong lol). That was my point. Of course, I get that there are other more important issues than how many people will be allowed to work here but my post was an observation strictly related to this topic. Edit- out of curiosity, I did check and I wasn't far from the truth https://blogs.deloitte.ch/tax/2017/1...nationals.html

Exactly! To be honest, I'd be more nervous about the collapse of the Bilateral agreements if I were a citizen of Malta or Cyprus than I'm concerned about Brexit's effects on my fellow citizens' right to settle in Switzerland.

It's unfair, utterly unfair, but immigration rules were never about fairness.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:
	Please let's not perpetuate the myth of a stable EU. This blindspot towards the dynamic nature of the organisation helps nobody. A vote for Remain was never a vote for the status quo.

We know you have read the whole of the Maastricht treaty, but really, really, you actually believe that Europe will better off without the stability afforded by the EU?

And why do you believe that people voting remain wanted a status quo. A vote for Remain was a vote that we would have a role and be part of the ongoing processes of the EU including any reform or change within it.

I can't quite fathom why Loz is quoting Rhodes. Nor why DB feels that being British is still considered a privilege? from my perspective its a bit of an albatross these days.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	We know you have read the whole of the Maastricht treaty, but really, really, you actually believe that Europe will better off without the stability afforded by the EU? And why do you believe that people voting remain wanted a status quo. A vote for Remain was a vote that we would have a role and be part of the ongoing processes of the EU including any reform or change within it. I can't quite fathom why Loz is quoting Rhodes. Nor why DB feels that being British is still considered a privilege? from my perspective its a bit of an albatross these days.

Why is it weird to feel glad to come from a certain place? I am a fan of my run down homeland.

As per the idea of stability represented by the EU. I don't see stability but standardization. There is a difference between those two concepts. Insensitive standardization might bring profit to a few key players (usually those who sell the program) but it can drown overall progress on a local and regional level.

I do not think that the UK is doing so poorly that it needs the EU. The EU needs it more, to dilute its own mess....spread it on a larger area so it remains unspotted and unaccounted for. I believe that Leavers voted for visibility and accountability.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	We know you have read the whole of the Maastricht treaty, but really, really, you actually believe that Europe will better off without the stability afforded by the EU?

I don't believe the EU is stable.

	Quote:
	And why do you believe that people voting remain wanted a status quo. A vote for Remain was a vote that we would have a role and be part of the ongoing processes of the EU including any reform or change within it.

Exactly what I - and 17 million other British voters - don't want.

	Quote:
	I can't quite fathom why Loz is quoting Rhodes. Nor why DB feels that being British is still considered a privilege? from my perspective its a bit of an albatross these days.

Did you not see the post about the immigration quotas? If that isn't proof of a privilege that isn't universally shared, I don't know what is!

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Why is it weird to feel glad to come from a certain place? I am a fan of my run down homeland.

Just to clarify: when I speak of Anglo privilege, it isn't with any sense of pride. Rather it is a pragmatic assessment of the United Kindgom's relationship with Switzerland, and our (frankly unfair) advantages in the job market and so on.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	Just to clarify: when I speak of Anglo privilege, it isn't with any sense of pride. Rather it is a pragmatic assessment of the United Kindgom's relationship with Switzerland, and our (frankly unfair) advantages in the job market and so on.

I totally get that.

I think I am a fan of my country because it is tiny and in a large political and financial scheme completely insignificant. Makes people humble and their jokes dark. That's my vision of patriotism.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Please let's not perpetuate the myth of a stable EU. This blindspot towards the dynamic nature of the organisation helps nobody. A vote for Remain was never a vote for the status quo.

A vote for Remain was a vote for the status quo in the sense of keeping the existing state of affairs; it was not necessarily a vote for maintaining the status quo so preventing any evolution.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:
	I don't believe the EU is stable.

Well it is as stable a union as one can hope for, in a world of uncertainty.

	Quote:
	Exactly what I - and 17 million other British voters - don't want.

Why? wanting to participate and be an active member of our nearest economic neighbour, makes complete sense, its irrational to want to leave. I think you expose yourself here DB for not being the powerhouse of intellect you like to believe yourself to be. But personal attacks aside, please, please, list me the things that made you want Britain to leave the EU. Perhaps something with bullet points, just 5 bullet points, ones that cant be argued against as deeply negative and intrusive on a British way of life, that personally have affected you. I am really curious.

	Quote:
	Did you not see the post about the immigration quotas? If that isn't proof of a privilege that isn't universally shared, I don't know what is!

Not privilege, but an economic choice for Switzerland, we are in a bilateral blah blah, you know this. Whereas those other European nations that you mentioned have not had as close an economic relationship with Switzerland. But there still is a Freedom of Movement agreement in Switzerland and the EU so its a mute point. I would assume Switzerland only conceded that because it wants to keep those options open to its citizens wanting to work and reside in the UK. Plus our agreement really never had anything much to do with the EU.