The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	I don't believe the EU is stable.

The EU (and its predecessors) grew out of a desire in post-WWII Europe never to see the events of 1939–45 repeat themselves. Do you really think the EU of today is not a safer, more secure, more stable Europe than it was in the 1930s? And do you not think that of all the countries in the world, the UK is currently doing the most to attempt to destabilize the EU?

	Quote:	Loz1983

Cecil Rhodes, 1853–1902.

As relevant today as Rhodesia.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Why is it weird to feel glad to come from a certain place? I am a fan of my run down homeland.

The uncomformtable aspect is that quote was from Cecil Rhodes who believed in English racial superiority. To say he was/is a contentious figure, is putting it very, very mildly. Quite a big fan of slavery too, which is why it astounds me that anyone would want to quote him...unless to troll.

	Quote:
	The EU (and it's predecessors) grew out of a desire in post-WWII Europe never to see the events of 1939–45 repeat themselves. Do you really think the EU of today is not a safer, more secure, more stable Europe than it was in the 1930s? And do you not think that of all the countries in the world, the UK is currently doing the most to attempt to destabilize the EU?

But what makes this EU a more secure and more stable union compared to let's say what we had in the 90's? I feel it is just getting worse and worse with the EU, and some of the modern political conflicts are in my opinion caused by the EU.

	Quote:
	But what makes this EU a more secure and more stable union compared to let's say what we had in the 90's? I feel it is just getting worse and worse with the EU, and some of the modern political conflicts are in my opinion caused by the EU.

If that's true (and I don't think it is; I believe Eastern and Central Europe—remember the post-Cold War mess? Yugoslavia? Czechoslovakia? Romania?—are much more stable now than in the 1990s, thanks largely to the EU), how would weakening the EU by splitting it improve the situation? How do you think Russia would behave if its western and southern neighbours were no longer aligned, especially in these Trumpian times of less US involvement in the world's problems?

Did the EU cause Russia to annexe Crimea? Or did the EU prevent further aggression?

	Quote:
	If that's true (and I don't think it is; I believe Eastern and Central Europe—remember the post-Cold War mess? Yugoslavia? Czechoslovakia? Romania?—are much more stable now than in the 1990s, thanks largely to the EU), how would weakening the EU by splitting it improve the situation? How do you think Russia would behave if its western and southern neighbours were no longer aligned, especially in these Trumpian times of less US involvement in the world's problems? Did the EU cause Russia to annexe Crimea? Or did the EU prevent further aggression?

The EU could not prevent Russia to annexe Crimea. Russia probably don't see the EU as a serious military power, and they are right as the only EU member that won a war in the last 100 years is about to leave.

[MusicChick]

Takes a while to change the mindset and attitudes of superpowers, innit..

Probably as long as Rhodesia getting over its 'supervisors'. How are we doing again with the US? Russia?

Satelite countries and the EU...don't get me started again on that extraordinary 'supervision'.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The EU could not prevent Russia to annexe Crimea. Russia probably don't see the EU as a serious military power, and they are right as the only EU member that won a war in the last 100 years is about to leave.

Why would the EU even attempt to prevent something going on in a non-EU country? If they had done something, I'm sure many on here would have been using it as evidence of their expansionist policy. I'm not sure the EU can win in many people's eyes.

Didn't France win a war by the way, or was it just we stoic Brits and the Johnny-come-lately Yanks that fought the Nazis?

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Takes a while to change the mindset and attitudes of superpowers, innit.. Probably as long as Rhodesia getting over its 'supervisors'. How are we doing again with the US? Russia? Satelite countries and the EU...don't get me started again on that extraordinary 'supervision'.

I'm constantly astonished by your posts on Brexit and the EU in general. It's extraordinary how short the memories of some of those from Eastern and Central European countries are. Perhaps, deep down, you want to return to the good ol' pre-EU days?



Warsaw Pact Invasion, 1968

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The EU could not prevent Russia to annexe Crimea. Russia probably don't see the EU as a serious military power, and they are right as the only EU member that won a war in the last 100 years is about to leave.

No, the EU couldn’t stop an overnight invasion of Crimea, then again Ukraine is not an EU nation. That’s what was scaring Putin and is what has been driving that conflict. Putin wants to hold power in the region, Crimea is strategic and it’s a major access point to the Blacksea and the Med. The EU instead puts economic pressure on Russia, and as a large economic area that does have an impact. Putin never ended the cold war. Of course no one is going to directly send in its military to a civil conflict especially one involving Russia. Russia sees the individual militaries of the EU and NATO as serious threats. France and the UK have nuclear capability and more then capable military forces. Then again that is also why Russian interference is aimed at creating as much instability in the world as possible and why you will find paper trails of Russian interference and political funding in Britain, America, Spain and Italy etc etc.

	Quote:
	Why would the EU even attempt to prevent something going on in a non-EU country?

Because the EU and Ukraine have an association agreement.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The EU could not prevent Russia to annexe Crimea. Russia probably don't see the EU as a serious military power, and they are right as the only EU member that won a war in the last 100 years is about to leave.

I didn't know that Crimea, or the Ukraine, were in the EU. I do know that no EU country was invaded by Russia after its annexation of Crimea.

As for the second part of your post, harking back to distant days of yore, remind me how the departure of "the only EU member that won a war in the last 100 years" is going to strengthen European defences against Russia and other aggressors... Ever hear of "united we stand, divided we fall"? That's one thing the Americans managed to get right.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Because the EU and Ukraine have an association agreement.

How is that relevant? It doesn't provide for a military alliance.

	Quote:
	Didn't France win a war by the way, or was it just we stoic Brits and the Johnny-come-lately Yanks that fought the Nazis?

Italy, too, when it was opportune to do so.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Because the EU and Ukraine have an association agreement.

For trade, yes.

OK, how should the EU have prevented it? The UK has been very active in preventing the EU having any sort of joint military force. DB's attitude on here (he has repeatedly cited the possibility of the EU having its own military force as being one of his prime objections to the EU) has illustrated this quite nicely.

I didn't see NATO - which does have a military force - doing much to prevent it either. Despite Ukraine being on the NATO list of aspiring members.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	The uncomformtable aspect is that quote was from Cecil Rhodes who believed in English racial superiority. To say he was/is a contentious figure, is putting it very, very mildly. Quite a big fan of slavery too, which is why it astounds me that anyone would want to quote him...unless to troll.

You’re either not as intelligent as you think you are or you are the troll. I was replying to a very specific point that DB was making which he has also subsequently repeated. So, which is it?

	Quote:
	Didn't France win a war by the way, or was it just we stoic Brits and the Johnny-come-lately Yanks that fought the Nazis?

French women welcomed the Nazis on their backs with their legs in the air whilst the rest of the country just handed over the keys to the Nazis. How they even got a say in the peace is beyond the realms of comprehension.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	French women welcomed the Nazis on their backs with their legs in the air whilst the rest of the country just handed over the keys to the Nazis. How they even got a say in the peace is beyond the realms of comprehension.

Wow. That's a bit over-Brexity, even for you.

Given over half a million French people died trying to defend against the Nazis (more than the Brits who died), you may want to re-assess.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The EU could not prevent Russia to annexe Crimea. Russia probably don't see the EU as a serious military power, and they are right as the only EU member that won a war in the last 100 years is about to leave.

....and that should give you a real picture of what Russia means in that region...Btw, it's you who is against EU, the Ukrainians would die to be part of the EU. Why do you think all those things happened, because they loved to be under Russia's command? Are you serious? What kind of games are being played on this forum?

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	probably don't see the EU as a serious military power, and they are right as the only EU member that won a war in the last 100 years is about to leave.

Umm, Italy won bigly 100 years ago.

Tom