The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	me.anon
	Those were the death pangs of an empire. We are probably seeing at least one other in a state of collapse.

Not in '68 they weren't.

And as far as the other comment is concerned, do you really not see the difference between an empire created by force and an organisation to which the member states have all signed up completely voluntarily? And to which there is still now a waiting list of more states wanting to join?

[amogles]

	Quote:	me.anon
	Those were the death pangs of an empire. We are probably seeing at least one other in a state of collapse. Anyway, the things that the state security apparatuses of the Eastern Block got up to and we regard as a total assault on "freedom" : Monitoring the citizens every move, reading their mail, watching what they buy, listening to their telephone conversations, maintaining huge data troves etc. etc. we now accept as fully normal (Google, Facebook etc. etc.). The choices may be either state imposed stability or chaos. Some people prefer stability.

I think initially when the Soviets came, many welcomed them with open arms. As liberators from Nazisim and as bringers of hope.


Remember that at the time people didn't have the hindsight that we have today, and there was no obvious reason to believe that socialism wasn't actually going to work.

It was only when people began to realize there was no way to opt out or veto or correct some of the excesses, and that there was no tolerance for dissenters or room for critical discussion that people became disatisfied and rebelious.


Will people always be as enthusiastic about the Eu as they are today, or about spying from Facebook, Google etc for that matter. And when that day comes, what opt out options will they have?

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	me.anon
	Those were the death pangs of an empire. We are probably seeing at least one other in a state of collapse. Anyway, the things that the state security apparatuses of the Eastern Block got up to and we regard as a total assault on "freedom" : Monitoring the citizens every move, reading their mail, watching what they buy, listening to their telephone conversations, maintaining huge data troves etc. etc. we now accept as fully normal (Google, Facebook etc. etc.). The choices may be either state imposed stability or chaos. Some people prefer stability.

What sudden care for the wellbeing of the EEs, to the point of prescribing them gratitude which they obviously lack. Think-policing will not be viewed too chic, by the EEs. Apart from the fact that EEs were always a petit bouche-trou to sacrifice for the world peace. Demaning trust on their part is a joke. Hasn't worked in the EU, do not think it would work less within V4. So far, they decide as they like. To threaten them by the old scenarios, the situations when the West left them hanging....is humorous. I can add what I personally think about people having opinions instead of actually talk about the opinions but I doubt it adds quality nor credit to the debate. Invest in those who actually want to engage with us. A bit of EE philosophy.

Brexiters decided. EEs keep deciding. They are closely watching the UK situ.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	I think initially when the Soviets came, many welcomed them with open arms. As liberators from Nazisim and as bringers of hope. Remember that at the time people didn't have the hindsight that we have today, and there was no obvious reason to believe that socialism wasn't actually going to work.

I think you are actualy wrong there. Nobody was that idealistic. I wish it was the case. Most people were not commie believers but just happy not be gassed/killed en route to world peace. Plus they knew we were really freed by the yanks and it was changed to justify the annex. Demarcation line was the biggest prank of the century. Right after Munich, actually.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	What sudden care for the wellbeing of the EEs, to the point of prescribing them gratitude which they obviously lack. Think-policing will not be viewed too chic, by the EEs. Apart from the fact that EEs were always a petite bouche-trou to sacrifice for the world peace. Demaning trust on their part is a joke. Hasn't worked in the EU, do not think it would work less within V4. So far, they decide as they like. To threaten them by the old scenarios, the situations when the West left them hanging....is humorous. I can add what I personally think about people having opinions instead of actually talk about the opinions but I doubt it adds quality nor credit to the debate. Invest in those who actually want to engage with us. A bit of EE philosophy.

Can you just use plain old English instead of rambling riddles? Maybe I’m the only one but 90% of that makes absolutely no sense at all, and I’m a native speaker.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Brexiters decided. EEs keep deciding. They are closely watching the UK situ.

It’s not really a closely guarded secret that much of the world is ‘closely watching the UK situ’.

	Quote:
	He has been intentionally ambiguous in his statement, as he thinks that when he comes to clarify later on, he won't be backtracking. "French women" could mean 2 or 2 million - he knows what he is implying, we know what the likely amount of French women who willingly did this is, and between we have the incredulity gap, which he is attempting to exploit. Or maybe I am giving him too much credit and he just wrote whatever shite came into his head.

There is nothing to clarify, and I stand by it. 200,000 babies born during the occupation of France to German fathers. Well sorry folks, it happened and it’s the truth. The people on here aren’t appalled that it happened, rather that I said it, whilst at the same time completely missing the point I was making. The same people who think it’s wrong to quote Rhodes because they judge him by 21st century values.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	To put it into a bit of perspective: Immigration from the UK (nationality, as opposed to residence), emigration numbers in brackets: 2008: 5773 (2642) 2009: 5045 (2521) 2010: 5697 (3501) 2011: 5523 (3325) 2012: 4664 (3687) 2013: 4922 (3681) 2014: 4655 (3783) 2015: 4312 (3853) 2016: 3902 (3830) 2017: 4119 (3435) The numbers tell a different story.

The initial cap of 3500 runs between 30th March and 31st December. So more than enough to cover the figures you’ve posted.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	There is nothing to clarify, and I stand by it. 200,000 babies born during the occupation of France to German fathers. Well sorry folks, it happened and it’s the truth. The people on here aren’t appalled that it happened, rather that I said it, whilst at the same time completely missing the point I was making. The same people who think it’s wrong to quote Rhodes because they judge him by 21st century values.

Well judging by your comments the world hasn’t progressed at all since Rhodes. nonetheless you posted those quotes because you knew you would flame the debate, even though there was no context to use them. Rhodes and his racist colonialism is really no longer relevant. Many women were raped during WWII, just sayin bud. So try to keep on track.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	Well judging by your comments the world hasn’t progressed at all since Rhodes. nonetheless you posted those quotes because you knew you would flame the debate, even though there was no context to use them. Rhodes and his racist colonialism is really no longer relevant. Many women were raped during WWII, just sayin bud. So try to keep on track.

The discussion had been about Anglo privilege - which is a real thing, whether people wish to acknowledge it or not. The Rhodes quote was used in a tongue in cheek manner to demonstrate that such privilege is nothing new.

Do people not care about context any more, or what?

	Quote:	Loz1983
	There is nothing to clarify, and I stand by it. 200,000 babies born during the occupation of France to German fathers. Well sorry folks, it happened and it’s the truth. The people on here aren’t appalled that it happened, rather that I said it, whilst at the same time completely missing the point I was making. The same people who think it’s wrong to quote Rhodes because they judge him by 21st century values.

Googling around suggests the numbers aren’t clear, though, with mothers having had German babies unlikely to admit the fact. Especially if it were through rape. Numbers in France ranged from 75000 to 200000, although to be honest I think your main aim was the juvenile shock-jock comment you made about French women further up the page, right?

	Quote:
	The discussion had been about Anglo privilege - which is a real thing, whether people wish to acknowledge it or not. The Rhodes quote was used in a tongue in cheek manner to demonstrate that such privilege is nothing new. Do people not care about context any more, or what?

And this is the point that you’ve now had to repeat three times and on every single occasion it’s fallen on deaf ears. I’ve travelled more than most and being British (and white) is still a privilege that isn’t afforded to other nations. Whether it’s discussing football in Africa, travelling around in India, or getting preferential treatment from third countries by the Swiss government, Rhodes’ quote still holds a lot of weight.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Can you just use plain old English instead of rambling riddles? Maybe I’m the only one but 90% of that makes absolutely no sense at all, and I’m a native speaker.

Maybe you need to spend a little more time reading and understanding history and historical context. It makes perfect sense.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	And this is the point that you’ve now had to repeat three times and on every single occasion it’s fallen on deaf ears. I’ve travelled more than most and being British (and white) is still a privilege that isn’t afforded to other nations. Whether it’s discussing football in Africa, travelling around in India, or getting preferential treatment from third countries by the Swiss government, Rhodes’ quote still holds a lot of weight.

It's funny. If I were discussing white privilege, nobody would leap to the conclusion that I'm a white supremacist. Quite the opposite, in fact.

But dare suggest that citizens of the United Kingdom enjoy privilege denied to others, well... obviously one must be a rabid imperialist of the worst stripe!

Smh

	Quote:
	Googling around suggests the numbers aren’t clear, though, with mothers having had German babies unlikely to admit the fact. Especially if it were through rape. Numbers in France ranged from 75000 to 200000, although to be honest I think your main aim was the juvenile shock-jock comment you made about French women further up the page, right?

Well, I’ll admit there was a bit of that, but then again I wouldn’t be me if I didn’t engage in a little agitation. I never even mentioned the role France played in the Holocaust, the joke that was “La Résistance“, the collaborators, the GDR style informants, the summary executions... the point is that France had absolutely no business being declared a “victor” in WW2.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I’ve travelled more than most...

Care to clarify? I love it when people come out with statements like this for the precise reason that they cannot be substantiated.

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	But dare suggest that citizens of the United Kingdom enjoy privilege denied to others, well... obviously one must be a rabid imperialist of the worst stripe!

Not so. It used to be the case that British passport holders required visas for the fewest number of countries, and were welcome in more countries than other nationalities. That hasn't been the case for quite some time now. I don't know exactly when the 'change' happened, but it's within the last 40yrs. Other friends in the travel industry would estimate about 25-30yrs ago.

"UK slides again as world's most powerful passports revealed"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...assports-2018/

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Care to clarify? I love it when people come out with statements like this for the precise reason that they cannot be substantiated. Not so. It used to be the case that British passport holders required visas for the fewest number of countries, and were welcome in more countries than other nationalities. That hasn't been the case for quite some time now. I don't know exactly when the 'change' happened, but it's within the last 40yrs. Other friends in the travel industry would estimate about 25-30yrs ago. "UK slides again as world's most powerful passports revealed" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...assports-2018/

Whoosh.

I don't know why I bother.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:
	It's funny. If I were discussing white privilege, nobody would leap to the conclusion that I'm a white supremacist. Quite the opposite, in fact. But dare suggest that citizens of the United Kingdom enjoy privilege denied to others, well... obviously one must be a rabid imperialist of the worst stripe! Smh

How so? I didn't deny that many British consider themselves to be privileged. However I don't think that the privilege is the same now as it was 50 or 60 years ago or in Rhodes time, perhaps having a passport from a wealthy 1st world nation does afford more grace. I hardly think Loz is the kind of guy who cares much about this anyway, remembering his stance on other issues, such as immigration and Black Lives Matter. If anything he's the kind of person who would embrace that privilege more then try to use it to illustrate inequality in the world. You know he's not an immigrant, but an expat sort...

Maybe he enjoyed discussing the nuances of cricket in India with his driver, who knows, who cares.

You think that he was being tongue in cheek, I personally think that he was trolling.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	There is nothing to clarify, and I stand by it. 200,000 babies born during the occupation of France to German fathers. Well sorry folks, it happened and it’s the truth. The people on here aren’t appalled that it happened, rather that I said it, whilst at the same time completely missing the point I was making. The same people who think it’s wrong to quote Rhodes because they judge him by 21st century values.

Dude come on... if you were a French woman and had the chance to keep yourself and your family safe from harm and well-fed by sleeping with a German officer... are you trying to tell us that you wouldn't, when you know people are routinely beaten and shot and food is scarce? Self-preservation makes people do a lot of things that they don't necessarily want to do and there is nothing surprising or even morally wrong about the majority of those women doing what they did.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	How so? I didn't deny that many British consider themselves to be privileged. However I don't think that the privilege is the same now as it was 50 or 60 years ago or in Rhodes time, perhaps having a passport from a wealthy 1st world nation does afford more grace. I hardly think Loz is the kind of guy who cares much about this anyway, remembering his stance on other issues, such as immigration and Black Lives Matter. If anything he's the kind of person who would embrace that privilege more then try to use it to illustrate inequality in the world. You know he's not an immigrant, but an expat sort... Maybe he enjoyed discussing the nuances of cricket in India with his driver, who knows, who cares. You think that he was being tongue in cheek, I personally think that he was trolling.

Well, what do I know? You've already told me you think I'm thick as pigshit.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Whoosh. I don't know why I bother.

Facts vs your outdated belief. The onus is on you to fill out your belief to make it persuasive. Whether you care to do that is another matter, and only you can decide.