The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	Makes sense.

Some people vote for self-interest. Some people vote on principle.

Neither approach is wrong.

[StirB]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	I can count the enthusiastic English EU citizens I know personally on the fingers of one hand. On the other hand, I know several dozen pragmatic "Better In Than Out" supporters who voted Remain for practical reasons. There isn't any great love for the EU in England, even amongst Remainers.

To be honest, I'm surprised there are any Remainers left, enthusiastic or otherwise, after 40 years of tabloid lies.

Oh well, I suspect in a year or two from now, it will be hard to find anyone who admits to being a leave voter. Hey ho.

[Odile]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Some people vote for self-interest. Some people vote on principle. Neither approach is wrong.

Most of the ones I know voted for both.

Neither approach is wrong- as long as you are prepared to take the consequences. I've said it before- it is not personal. All my adult life, I never voted for stuff happening in Switzerland - as I was not there, to gauge, assess but mainly to live up to. I always felt it would be wrong. Principles.

But no wonder the young are unhappy- the ones who could not vote because they were too young - and as you have said before- the ones who were really *********** enough not to go and vote (and I agree with you there).

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	StirB
	To be honest, I'm surprised there are any Remainers left, enthusiastic or otherwise, after 40 years of tabloid lies. Oh well, I suspect in a year or two from now, it will be hard to find anyone who admits to being a leave voter. Hey ho.

To be fair, it's been lies all round for 40 years. The Tories assured everyone it was all about a common market despite the clear intentions laid out in the Treaty of Rome.

Nobody comes out of this bathed in glory.

[Clocker]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	since the referendum more people have expressed regret at their decision

like who?!

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Clocker
	like who?!

Mainly actors who voted Remain but claim to be repentant Leave voters till someone goes and finds their Facebook account...

[StirB]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	To be fair, it's been lies all round for 40 years. The Tories assured everyone it was all about a common market despite the clear intentions laid out in the Treaty of Rome. Nobody comes out of this bathed in glory.

I probably shouldn't have said 40 years, I'm 35, so was extrapolating.

People my age probably aren't bothered by what happened to get us into the EU, it happened a decade before we were born and probably 20-25 years before we were aware of the EU concept. It's quite possible you were lied to 40 years ago, however, during my lifetime, or my adult lifetime, let's say - the stream of lies has been HEAVILY one sided.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	StirB
	I probably shouldn't have said 40 years, I'm 35, so was extrapolating. People my age probably aren't bothered by what happened to get us into the EU, it happened a decade before we were born and probably 20-25 years before we were aware of the EU concept. It's quite possible you were lied to 40 years ago, however, during my lifetime, or my adult lifetime, let's say - the stream of lies has been HEAVILY one sided.

Even in the last three years, though, we've had gems like "the EU has given us 70 years of peace" and "the EU is a guarantor of human rights", both of which are clearly utter nonsense - and the latter of which has been seized on by the usual suspects to argue against the EU!

I mean, I'm all for hearing pragmatic arguments, and had the Remain side stuck to that they might have got somewhere, but let's not deny that the pudding was iced with as much risible nonsense as Nige and his mates were dishing up.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Odile
	Neither approach is wrong- as long as you are prepared to take the consequences. I've said it before- it is not personal. All my adult life, I never voted for stuff happening in Switzerland - as I was not there, to gauge, assess but mainly to live up to. I always felt it would be wrong. Principles

I used to teach a kid call Ryan, who was being bullied. Every single playtime he'd come back into the classroom in floods of tears, with a bruise on his cheek or a black eye.

I was determined to get to the bottom of the problem, so I spent a whole playtime at the window watching Ryan and his interactions.

It was weird. For twenty minutes, the kid had a great time. He was clearly enjoying himself, the other kids seemed happy to play with him, there really was nothing to see, no indication as to why he was getting thumped so often.

Then the whistle blew and the kids lined up. Still, everything was fine, until...

Ryan looked around to make sure nobody could see, then he whacked the lad in front of him right in the kidney. Naturally, the lad turned round and lamped him. Ryan burst into tears and ran in to find me. He didn't get the sympathy he was expecting.

It too him a while to learn, too. Some people are just slow learners.

[StirB]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	but let's not deny that the pudding was iced with as much risible nonsense as Nige and his mates were dishing up.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

We have had peace in Europe (central and western anyway) since WW2 - how much the EU and it predecessors have to do with this, again, one we can debate on, although I appreciate correlation isn't causation.

Similarly with human rights, the EHCR or predecessor has been knocking about since the early 50s - How helpful has it been? Again, who knows, but I'd wager Scousers were glad to have something constraining Mrs Thatcher.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Odile
	I can count the enthusiatic English Leavers I know personally on the fingers of one hand- and only one is still enthusiastic- the others are devastated they made the wrong assessment of the situation and that they were conned, in so many ways.

And amongst the ones I know, it's two of those regretful leave voters who are furiously stockpiling now.

Despite what DB may say, think and believe, I've always been a proud European. I've always appreciated how the EU is beneficial in my daily life. I always appreciated the long notice periods prior to implementing EU legislation, giving us (union reps) valuable to time to read, research, consult, digest and analyse prior to the implementation date. I had almost 20yrs of 'nay sayers' to deal with, particularly on the side of management, but they allways came back, six months down the line, in agreement that the legislation was massively beneficial, particularly when it came to developing future production contigency plans.

I personally witnessed a massive sea change in how EU legislation was viewed from utter cynicism in the early days, to open curiosity as one piece after another bore fruit for management and shop floor workers. That revealing and interesting experience was never repeated whilst working for an American company in the UK, and having to implement US legislation. Utter nightmare, almost always knee jerk and always at the very last minute.

I've actually kept my 'Guide to the EU Working Time Directive' for strangely sentimental reasons. It lived in my work bag for donkey's years and was lent out to literally hundreds of colleagues who wanted to know more (my site had 835 employees). It's quite simply, a beautiful piece of legislation.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	StirB
	We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. We have had peace in Europe (central and western anyway) since WW2 - how much the EU and it predecessors have to do with this, again, one we can debate on, although I appreciate correlation isn't causation. Similarly with human rights, the EHCR or predecessor has been knocking about since the early 50s - How helpful has it been? Again, who knows, but I'd wager Scousers were glad to have something constraining Mrs Thatcher.

The ECHR has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. That's my point.

And I would argue that NATO has done a lot more to preserve peace in Europe than the EU and its predecessors.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Despite what DB may say, think and believe, I've always been a proud European.

I don't doubt that for a minute. One of my oldest friends has been an enthusiastic European federalist since before the EU even existed. Such people clearly exist.

But I would argue that you're very much a minority amongst English people, even amongst people who voted Remain.

	Quote:	Swisstree
	It was an undeliverable utter shambles two years ago, nothing's changed.. except for the exposed nature of the tory cock-up and the inevitable break up of the tory and the labour party.

Do you not see that a split in the main parties is one of the best thing that can happen in UK politics?

That moment when it finally dawns on Ireland that the EU are playing them like pawns and don't have their interests at heart at all.

Editorial: 'EU cannot allow us to burn as may fiddles over brexit'

[StirB]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	The ECHR has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. That's my point. And I would argue that NATO has done a lot more to preserve peace in Europe than the EU and its predecessors.

Perhaps you are looking at this too directly.

If you speak / spoke to people of my parents' generation and grandparents' generation, they on the whole hold/held the Europeans (esp French!) as inferior beings. Deny it all you want, but look at the comedy prevalent at the time and it is pretty obvious. People of my generation are the first really untouched by the war (my dad was born in 1941 for example, so lived through the war and then rationing) and I believe able to make slightly more objective opinions on our Euro neighbours.

The fact that the EU has made travel to and working in these places so much easier can only have been of benefit in that regard...as I'm sure you'll agree, once you actually meet some Germans, French etc, you find they are the same as us in pretty much every regard, but with a silly accent.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	StirB
	Perhaps you are looking at this too directly. If you speak / spoke to people of my parents' generation and grandparents' generation, they on the whole hold/held the Europeans (esp French!) as inferior beings. Deny it all you want, but look at the comedy prevalent at the time and it is pretty obvious. People of my generation are the first really untouched by the war (my dad was born in 1941 for example, so lived through the war and then rationing) and I believe able to make slightly more objective opinions on our Euro neighbours. The fact that the EU has made travel to and working in these places so much easier can only have been of benefit in that regard...as I'm sure you'll agree, once you actually meet some Germans, French etc, you find they are the same as us in pretty much every regard, but with a silly accent.

You have a point, but it's a bit ironic because for me it was living abroad that first made me question whether European nations were actually compatible after all! For context, back in '93, I was a full-on European. I even read the long- defunct European newspaper (remember that?) and was totally committed to the idea of a unified Europe.

But then the more time I spent in Greece, listening to what people had to say and how they saw the world, I began to wonder if it was all a bit of a castle in the sky.

To cut a very long anecdote short, events since then have pretty much confirmed my early qualms. It's sad, but I don't think Europe as a unified project is actually possible in the long term.

	Quote:	StirB
	The fact that the EU has made travel to and working in these places so much easier can only have been of benefit in that regard...as I'm sure you'll agree, once you actually meet some Germans, French etc, you find they are the same as us in pretty much every regard, but with a silly accent.

I would argue that the internet, email and the advent of cheap flights has done for more for European integration than the EU has.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I would argue that the internet, email and the advent of cheap flights has done for more for European integration than the EU has.

And I would disagree.

You couldn't get a prouder Englishman than my dad. He resolutely resisted all attempts by the rest of the family to have holidays abroad. He finally caved in in 1982 and went on a road trip across Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and Austria.

My dad couldn't go anywhere without sticking his nose into a garage and having a good luck around. On that trip, he made so many new mechanic friends, that he immediately set about importing cars from Belgium upon his return. He died a year later in '83, so long before the internet, etc, became accessible to the general public.

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	And I would disagree. You couldn't get a prouder Englishman than my dad. He resolutely resisted all attempts by the rest of the family to have holidays abroad. He finally caved in in 1982 and went on a road trip across Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and Austria. My dad couldn't go anywhere without sticking his nose into a garage and having a good luck around. On that trip, he made so many new mechanic friends, that he immediately set about importing cars from Belgium upon his return. He died a year later in '83, so long before the internet, etc, became accessible to the general public.

So he went on a road trip a decade before the EU was established, and this demonstrates that the EU has done more for integration than the things Loz1983 suggested?

Eh?