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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #17881  
Old 16.02.2019, 17:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Selfrighteous outrage. You might be right, StirB. One doesn't come accross this stuff in underprivileged places, maybe.
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  #17882  
Old 16.02.2019, 18:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Selfrighteous outrage. You might be right, StirB. One doesn't come accross this stuff in underprivileged places, maybe.
I need to take you for a pint in Cannock sometime...
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  #17883  
Old 16.02.2019, 18:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I need to take you for a pint in Cannock sometime...
Underprivileged quasi outrage is more fun, I agree.
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  #17884  
Old 16.02.2019, 18:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I need to take you for a pint in Cannock sometime...
"Cannock was called Chenet in the Domesday Book of 1086. It was called Chnoc c.1130, Cnot in 1156, Canot in 1157, and Canoc in 1198."

They couldn't even decide on their own name for a long while. Seems they're a good match to the UK's current gouvernment strategy regarding Brexit.
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  #17885  
Old 16.02.2019, 18:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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wtf was that anecdote trying to prove.

Anyway the EU offers a hell of a lot more to Britain then your expert opinion is rattling out. From joint research programs and funding, academic research and collaboration, conservation regulations, standards in consumer products and consumer protection, to environmental legislation, policing and general legislation, construction industry standardisation, medical industry research and collaborations, space research, telecommunications development, and the list is endless that is all down to being a part of the EU which has allowed us to be part of all of this. But you want it to stop, because you know better!
All the points you mention are valid except for the "all down to being a part of the EU which has allowed us to be part of all of this.", as there are plenty of such programs and initiatives outside the EU too.

To make an informed decision, you should also be critical and look at the cons. For example, the lack of democratic control in themes like the EU expansion policy, ECB programmes, migration. Brexit would be a great moment for the EU to reflect and ask its citizens what kind of EU they want, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen.
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  #17886  
Old 16.02.2019, 20:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I can count the enthusiastic English EU citizens I know personally on the fingers of one hand.

On the other hand, I know several dozen pragmatic "Better In Than Out" supporters who voted Remain for practical reasons.

There isn't any great love for the EU in England, even amongst Remainers.
Surprisingly I find myself agreeing with you! Nobody loves the EU.
That does raise the question is loving the EU either necessary or a prerequisite?

All the years I lived in the UK and voted I always voted for the least worst candidate; none of the candidates or political parties ever really excited me!

Reason I am Remain is that is for me the least worst solution, not the best solution. The EU offers economies of scale that cannot be replicated by the UK.
The business model of building complex results out of components built in different EU countries with friction less and duty free deliveries will likely no longer be available to the UK.

The people who voted for Brexit for jingoistic reasons will be disappointed; Britannia will never rule the seas again or fish more fish.
Not pointing at you DB, you did your research.

So far there is little evidence that UK will succeed to negotiate better deals with third countries than those currently available via EU membership; best deal publicised so far is with Switzerland but even that falls short of the existing bilateral.
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  #17887  
Old 16.02.2019, 20:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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All the points you mention are valid except for the "all down to being a part of the EU which has allowed us to be part of all of this.", as there are plenty of such programs and initiatives outside the EU too.

To make an informed decision, you should also be critical and look at the cons. For example, the lack of democratic control in themes like the EU expansion policy, ECB programmes, migration. Brexit would be a great moment for the EU to reflect and ask its citizens what kind of EU they want, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen.
Sort of jingoistic!
Where are these "plenty of such programs and initiatives outside the EU too"?

You claim the lack of democratic control but the EU 27 vote on such stuff; there are vetos and factions with common interests.

EU citizens get to vote their MEPs and that demonstrates what kind of EU they want.
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  #17888  
Old 16.02.2019, 20:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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All the points you mention are valid except for the "all down to being a part of the EU which has allowed us to be part of all of this.", as there are plenty of such programs and initiatives outside the EU too.

To make an informed decision, you should also be critical and look at the cons. For example, the lack of democratic control in themes like the EU expansion policy, ECB programmes, migration. Brexit would be a great moment for the EU to reflect and ask its citizens what kind of EU they want, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen.
It doesn't seem to happen and not accidentally or for lack of planning. There is a decent dose of arrogance.
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  #17889  
Old 16.02.2019, 20:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"Cannock was called Chenet in the Domesday Book of 1086. It was called Chnoc c.1130, Cnot in 1156, Canot in 1157, and Canoc in 1198."

They couldn't even decide on their own name for a long while. Seems they're a good match to the UK's current gouvernment strategy regarding Brexit.
Well if you're talking UK government strategy, I'm from Coccium which is an even better fit.
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  #17890  
Old 16.02.2019, 20:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Apparently, we have a new elephant in the room to discuss...

Quote:
Flybmi goes into administration - all flights cancelled

"Current trading and future prospects have also been seriously affected by the uncertainty created by the Brexit process, which has led to our inability to secure valuable flying contracts in Europe and lack of confidence around bmi's ability to continue flying between destinations in Europe.

"Additionally, our situation mirrors wider difficulties in the regional airline industry which have been well documented.
https://news.sky.com/story/flybmi-go...elled-11639652

Personally, whilst I'd be interested in the owners providing a full explanation how Brexit has been a factor, I've long believed this airline to be on the ropes, so I'm not going to lay it's demise at the doors of Brexit.
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  #17891  
Old 16.02.2019, 20:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Apparently, we have a new elephant in the room to discuss...

https://news.sky.com/story/flybmi-go...elled-11639652

Personally, whilst I'd be interested in the owners providing a full explanation how Brexit has been a factor, I've long believed this airline to be on the ropes, so I'm not going to lay it's demise at the doors of Brexit.
Sad for me!
Years ago I worked in London and had to fly to Paris two or three times a week.
My company had a deal with BMI and I always took the first morning flight.

Unlike some other airlines they always had the same crew; we were on first name terms and they always had a bloody Mary in my hand before I even found my seat!
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  #17892  
Old 16.02.2019, 21:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Apparently, we have a new elephant in the room to discuss...

https://news.sky.com/story/flybmi-go...elled-11639652

Personally, whilst I'd be interested in the owners providing a full explanation how Brexit has been a factor, I've long believed this airline to be on the ropes, so I'm not going to lay it's demise at the doors of Brexit.
"Current trading and future prospects have also been seriously affected by the uncertainty created by the Brexit process, which has led to our inability to secure valuable flying contracts in Europe."
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  #17893  
Old 16.02.2019, 21:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Apparently, we have a new elephant in the room to discuss...

https://news.sky.com/story/flybmi-go...elled-11639652

Personally, whilst I'd be interested in the owners providing a full explanation how Brexit has been a factor, I've long believed this airline to be on the ropes, so I'm not going to lay it's demise at the doors of Brexit.
A factor doesn't mean this was the cause, it means ... it was a factor. They were indeed on the ropes and were seeking capital from wherever they could find it. EU investors interest was likely limited as flybmi was a UK airline and had to maintain it's UK ownership and control.

This may aid your understanding:
Quote:
EU, UK issue more no-deal Brexit guidance for air transport

Feb 15, 2019 Alan Dron
Both the European Union (EU) and the UK have announced measures designed to smooth air transport connections in the event of the UK departing the bloc in six weeks’ time (Brexit) without a deal.

A distinct difference in attitude toward this situation was evident in the two camps’ Feb. 15 announcements; the EU talked of “severe disruption” to air connectivity in the event of no deal being agreed, while the UK, giving an update on security measures for air passengers and cargo traveling to and from the EU, emphasized that the status quo on security would largely be maintained.

In its announcement, the EU said that member states’ ambassadors in the European Council’s Permanent Representatives Committee approved the Romanian presidency of the EU—the presidency is held on a rotating, six-monthly basis—“to negotiate with the European Parliament on a proposal, which enables UK-licensed carriers to provide basic air transport services between the UK and the remaining 27 member states. These rights will be conditional on equivalent rights being conferred by the UK and subject to conditions ensuring fair competition.”

It added that a special provision would ensure the right to continue to provide scheduled flights under public service obligations (Essential Air Services in US parlance) until Oct. 26, 2019, to ensure their continuity while national authorities adapted to the new situation.

Limited codesharing and aircraft leasing arrangements, including wet lease, would be allowed under certain conditions, it added.

“If, as a result of Brexit, an air carrier holding an operating license issued by an EU member state ceases to comply with EU ownership and control requirements, it will have until 26 October 2019 to fully meet all those requirements. Air carriers will have two weeks from the entry into force of the regulation to submit a precise and complete plan presenting the measures intended to achieve full compliance with the ownership and control requirements as from Oct. 27, 2019 at the latest.”

In background notes to the announcement, the EU added that all contingency measures for a no-deal Brexit “are exceptional in nature and strictly time-limited. The transport connectivity measures are not intended to replicate the status quo under EU law, but rather to preserve basic connectivity between the EU and the UK.”

Meanwhile, the overall tenor of the UK’s updated security advice is that the status quo will largely remain.

“If the UK leaves the EU … without an agreement in place on aviation security, the existing aviation security regulations and procedures will be retained in domestic law under the EU Withdrawal Act,” the UK Department for Transport (DfT) said.

The DfT noted the EU had stated that “it intends to recognize the UK aviation security regime and include it in the ‘One Stop Security’ system for passengers and cargo.”

The EU’s regulations provide for the recognition of security standards applied in a non-EU country, such as the UK after March, where those standards are equivalent to those of the EU.

That recognition allows “One Stop Security,” where passengers, baggage and/or cargo arriving into the EU do not need to be subjected again to security controls when transferring at EU airports.

This, the DfT said, means that security screening requirements for all direct passenger flights to and from the UK would remain as they are today.

“The EU has stated that it will recognize UK passenger and baggage screening. This means that passengers flying from the UK will continue to be able to transfer at an EU airport for an onward flight without experiencing additional security rescreening procedures.”

As for freight, “The UK intends to recognize EU cargo security from the outset and will not require new cargo security designations for carriers from EU airports. This recognizes that security standards are already aligned and equivalent.

“The EU has stated that it intends to recognize the UK cargo security regime as equivalent and allow cargo to continue to fly into the EU. This means that cargo can fly from the UK to the EU without a security designation.”

However, the EU’s inbound cargo regime means that carriers flying cargo into the EU (including the UK currently) from the rest of the world must hold a security designation.

“If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the UK would not be part of the EU scheme. The UK will operate a separate UK-only inbound cargo regime, which will mirror the EU scheme.”

To minimize barriers to international trade, the UK will grant security designations for cargo that mirror those that exist within the EU for cargo flying into the UK from non-EU countries.
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  #17894  
Old 16.02.2019, 21:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sort of jingoistic!
Where are these "plenty of such programs and initiatives outside the EU too"?

You claim the lack of democratic control but the EU 27 vote on such stuff; there are vetos and factions with common interests.

EU citizens get to vote their MEPs and that demonstrates what kind of EU they want.
In terms of standardization, ISO is of course a great example, or maybe ITU.
Research: what about the international space station?
Apart from that, there are well-known organisations like UN, NATO, WTO, G8 and many others.

Countries have vetos. People don't. A referendum could be a much better way to come to a strategic decision on a key topic.
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  #17895  
Old 16.02.2019, 21:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's not an EF discussion without bitching!
Oh god, forget the bitching. I've been reading a few replies and I wondered if these people are for real. They were extremely serious I think, no joking around.

I think UK will be OK in the end, just please, let's not divide the others so you can get better deals with each of them. It's dishonest. If people are so resourceful and will be on top of new technologies and new products and services (which I doubt, it's too small a country these days), then yes, the exit will be a success. If not, just through unorthodox tactics...what's the point? Why risk destabilising the whole continent just because some people can't lose... I expected more.
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  #17896  
Old 16.02.2019, 22:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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... I always took the first morning flight.

... they always had a bloody Mary in my hand before I even found my seat!
No "sun over the yardarm" considerations? You want to watch that. Hope it didn't become a habit!
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  #17897  
Old 16.02.2019, 23:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No "sun over the yardarm" considerations? You want to watch that. Hope it didn't become a habit!
A long time ago in another universe; haven't had a bloody Mary or indeed any sort of cocktail for at least 15 years.
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  #17898  
Old 17.02.2019, 05:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

https://www.20min.ch/finance/news/st...lvent-13599021

BMI claims that the unclear situation about Brexit basically killed them off.

At this point, even if the Brits somehow manage an orderly exit (why do I doubt that?) the damage to many companies has already been served.
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  #17899  
Old 17.02.2019, 09:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Markets hate uncertainty. Brexit is nothing about uncertainty.

When in trouble, or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout?
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Old 17.02.2019, 09:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Basically most problems (economic or otherwise) in Europe and beyond with any remote connection to the UK are going to be blamed on Brexit for the next generation.
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