The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The hard border isn't a mess. It's something that's been invented by the EU/Ireland to try and screw the UK in negotiations. The UK have just proven it's a non-existent problem.

In what way does the UK attempting to absolve itself of responsibility "prove" it is a non-existent problem? I don't follow your logic.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	My Geography isn't quite what it was when I got an A* at GCSE all those years ago, but I think that Ireland wouldn't be the only place the EU has a border.

Really?

Wasn't Mr Orban criticised for putting up a fence and lectured that there is nothing wrong with goods and people coming into the EU by back roads.

I bet thise people wished we could forget that.

	Quote:
	In what way does the UK attempting to absolve itself of responsibility "prove" it is a non-existent problem? I don't follow your logic.

It's not absolving itself of responsibility, the UK is acting entirely responsibly by not erecting a hard border. The issue from the outset is on the EU's side, and it's up to Ireland and the EU to find a solution to their problem.

	Quote:	amogles
	Really? Wasn't Mr Orban criticised for putting up a fence and lectured that there is nothing wrong with goods and people coming into the EU by back roads. I bet thise people wished we could forget that.

Doesn't that argument only compare to the Irish border issue if the goods and people then were trucked through the EU and ended up in the UK if and when it's no longer in the EU, though?

[lewton]

	Quote:	amogles
	Nice try, but seeing the people thinking this largely overlap with those that otherwise say, borders are bad, walls and fences are evil, they have a bit if a credibility gap there. Why is it that Ireland is the only place in the world where they support a hard border?

It's not and we never said that.
You are obviously living in your own phantasy where your opponents say stupid and inconsistent things.
We want a hard border around the Single Market. It's essential for the the Single Market to serve its purpose.

[lewton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It's not absolving itself of responsibility, the UK is acting entirely responsibly by not erecting a hard border. The issue from the outset is on the EU's side, and it's up to Ireland and the EU to find a solution to their problem.

The UK knows that the other side of the border will have higher standards on pretty much everything, so obviously it doesn't care to control what is flowing into the UK through that border.
This side of the border though has no trust (and rightfully) to the UK's ability to maintain any standard. Your idiotic Brexiteers have made it pretty clear what kind of a country they envision.

	Quote:	lewton
	The UK knows that the other side of the border will have higher standards on pretty much everything, so obviously it doesn't care to control what is flowing into the UK through that border. This side of the border though has no trust (and rightfully) to the UK's ability to maintain any standard. Your idiotic Brexiteers have made it pretty clear what kind of a country they envision.

Yup, a low tax, low regulation, business friendly developed economy 21 miles off the coast of Europe. The EU would shit themselves. Unfortunately internal politics will never allow that to happen.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yup, a low tax, low regulation, business friendly developed economy 21 miles off the coast of Europe. The EU would shit themselves. Unfortunately internal politics will never allow that to happen.

Have you turned into a remainer? That sounds like a remainer argument.

[amogles]

	Quote:	lewton
	The UK knows that the other side of the border will have higher standards on pretty much everything, so obviously it doesn't care to control what is flowing into the UK through that border. This side of the border though has no trust (and rightfully) to the UK's ability to maintain any standard. Your idiotic Brexiteers have made it pretty clear what kind of a country they envision.

Are you sure you're not the one living in phantasy (sic) here?

So the whole world will ship their goods into Northern Ireland to truck them over the border and then ship them to the rest of the EU. Belphast would instantly develop to one of the world's largest ports. There would be tens of thousands of jobs.

But this phantasy is not going to happen just because the supply chain of Lidl and Aldi don'rt work that way.

It's just a phantasy, a phear. It's not going to phappen.

	Quote:	amogles
	Are you sure you're not the one living in phantasy (sic) here? So the whole world will ship their goods into Northern Ireland to truck them over the border and then ship them to the rest of the EU. Belphast would instantly develop to one of the world's largest ports. There would be tens of thousands of jobs. But this phantasy is not going to happen just because the supply chain of Lidl and Aldi don'rt work that way. It's just a phantasy, a phear. It's not going to phappen.

"Belphast" may indeed get popular...

	Quote:
	@david.burns62 So this is my understanding,as a food business based in Oxfordshire I will pay a UK tariff on imports of food we cannot access in the UK but if I open a depot in Belfast and truck it over to Bicester I won’t pay yes ?You couldn’t make this Shit up could you ?#BrexitShambles 2:00 AM - 13 Mar 2019

	Quote:	amogles
	Really? Wasn't Mr Orban criticised for putting up a fence and lectured that there is nothing wrong with goods and people coming into the EU by back roads. I bet thise people wished we could forget that.

Back roads? The fence was between it and another EU member, Croatia!

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It's not absolving itself of responsibility, the UK is acting entirely responsibly by not erecting a hard border. The issue from the outset is on the EU's side, and it's up to Ireland and the EU to find a solution to their problem.

The UK is a signatory to the good Friday Agreement - walking away from its responsibility to maintain peace, whilst attempting to leave the other side in peril is a clear abandonment of the good faith upon which it is based. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Back roads? The fence was between it and another EU member, Croatia!

no, actually, not true.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	The UK is a signatory to the good Friday Agreement - walking away from its responsibility to maintain peace, whilst attempting to leave the other side in peril is a clear abandonment of the good faith upon which it is based. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

and the Good Friday agreement says no hard border.

It is those who want to put in a hard border who are acting against the agreement.

	Quote:	amogles
	no, actually, not true.

Or, alternatively, actually true...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier

	Quote:	amogles
	and the Good Friday agreement says no hard border.

It actually doesn't. Not going well today, is it?

There is no explicit text mentioning anything about a hard border. I'm glad you are arguing on this in full possession of the facts though.

What it does say:

The agreement contains a commitment by the British and Irish governments to develop "close cooperation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". The UK is reneging on that promise.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Or, alternatively, actually true... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier

Ok, go on, in what way is one hard border good and another bad?

	Quote:	amogles
	Ok, go on, in what way is one hard border good and another bad?

Strawman? Non-seq? Who was saying this? I was just refuting your claim that the complained about fence was stopping movement from "into the EU from back roads" when in fact, it was between two EU countries - hence why people are complaining; that's a no-go within the EU, as you know. Hope that helps.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	lewton
	We want a hard border around the Single Market.

Does that make you a Trump supporter?

The way the thread turned is hilarious.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	I love the Brexiteer logic. Make a mess, then leave and tell everyone else it is their fault for not cleaning up the mess. Classic. It's worked for Farage and BoJo, so why wouldn't you keep trying it?

I like this piece of logic from arch Brexiteer and former Vote Leave staffer, Oliver Norgrove. He's very kindly posted a thread explaining how his resolve has unravelled, though there is a part of me that wonders if he really means it, or is just upset that he didn't get the tv appearance bookings he'd hoped for.

	Quote:
	Oliver Norgrove‏Verified account @OliverNorgrove 13h13 hours ago I'm now at the stage where I think if we end up not leaving it'll be a blessing. Let's face it, my side just doesn't deserve it. I'm no Remainer, I still dislike the EU and consider it to be undemocratic from top to bottom. I won't campaign for Remain. But I'm sick of being let down and embarrassed by all of this. Also I've become very frustrated with myself for the lack of consideration I showed the Northern Ireland issue a few years ago. (More on this at a later date, but I think it's actually symptomatic of something much wider than Brexit) So, I can no longer commit publicly to being a Brexiteer. I'll follow the issue and give my 2 cents, to anybody who might care about my opinion, where I can. But the pursuit for something I now consider unworkable is pointless. I refuse to be driven into madness by it all. The UK had to, at some point, face up to this. But its political system just couldn't cope. We fought the referendum like a general election, we triggered A50 without a plan, we never understood how the EU operated nor that Brexit wasn't a standard negotiation. It's been self-deception on an almighty scale. At one point I thought, naively, that I could stand as a better example for the Leave side, but I now realise that it's hopeless. I'm never asked for input, the media cares only for those on the extreme. A recipe for disaster . I'm quite furious tonight. With general events and with myself. I might open a bottle.

https://twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/s...89723832217601