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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #19181  
Old 25.03.2019, 17:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Everything so clear today, eh?
Yup.

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The only reason Brexit isn't being delivered as promised is because Parliament is choc full of Remainers who have done their utmost to frustrate the process.
And so it should be. There were almost as many remain voters as leave voters. It was nowhere near a landslide. Yes, a relatively small majority voted leave over remain but MPs wouldn't be doing their job if they just rolled over and ignored 16-odd million people who voted to remain.
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  #19182  
Old 25.03.2019, 17:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And so it should be. There were almost as many remain voters as leave voters. It was nowhere near a landslide. Yes, a relatively small majority voted leave over remain but MPs wouldn't be doing their job if they just rolled over and ignored 16-odd million people who voted to remain.
Just the 1.3 million more Leave voters.

"MP's wouldn't be doing there job" - what if Remain would have won under the same margins? Would we be talking now about a soft Remain in order to satisfy those that voted leave? Would we bollocks. This is where Remainer logic falls on its arse, for them it would have been a binary decision if Remain had won.
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  #19183  
Old 25.03.2019, 17:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just the 1.3 million more Leave voters.

"MP's wouldn't be doing there job" - what if Remain would have won under the same margins? Would we be talking now about a soft Remain in order to satisfy those that voted leave? Would we bollocks. This is where Remainer logic falls on its arse, for them it would have been a binary decision if Remain had won.
Err... "Remain" as in "Remain unchanged"? The definition of Remain in this context is unequivocal. It was only "Leave" that was ill-defined and seems still to be slithering around looking for a meaning.
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  #19184  
Old 25.03.2019, 17:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Err... "Remain" as in "Remain unchanged"? The definition of Remain in this context is unequivocal. It was only "Leave" that was ill-defined and seems still to be slithering around looking for a meaning.
There’s no such thing as Remian unchanged:

“There won’t be an EU army”
“There won’t be an EU labour authority”
“There won’t be a standard EU Tax authority”
“There will never be majority voting”
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  #19185  
Old 25.03.2019, 17:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There’s no such thing as Remian unchanged:

“There won’t be an EU army”
“There won’t be an EU labour authority”
“There won’t be a standard EU Tax authority”
“There will never be majority voting”
Which bit of that does not apply to "Remain in the EU"?
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  #19186  
Old 25.03.2019, 17:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There’s no such thing as Remian unchanged:

“There won’t be an EU army”
“There won’t be an EU labour authority”
“There won’t be a standard EU Tax authority”
“There will never be majority voting”
For somebody who gives so much of a sh*t for UK democracy, you didn't even care to vote yourself. I wonder why you are still so concerned that the UK has not yet Brexited and constantly voice your opinion here? Baffled.

Leaving the EU wont help vetoing future EU policies will it.
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  #19187  
Old 25.03.2019, 18:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Been a while since I've had to use this.

You didn't answer to my question last time though.

Given that it was legally an advisory referendum (as per British "constitution") and the head of the government who promised to implement the people's decision resigned the following day, are subsequent governments bound by his own personal promise?
Do they have to honour the promise of someone who upon realising that his promise was undeliverable preferred to just go home instead of honouring it himself?
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  #19188  
Old 25.03.2019, 18:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You didn't answer to my question last time though.

Given that it was legally an advisory referendum (as per British "constitution") and the head of the government who promised to implement the people's decision resigned the following day, are subsequent governments bound by his own personal promise?
Do they have to honour the promise of someone who upon realising that his promise was undeliverable preferred to just go home instead of honouring it himself?
Yes, because there was a General Election where the current PM ran on a manifesto to honour the referendum result.
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  #19189  
Old 25.03.2019, 18:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So? People can protest whatever they want. Brexit is a dud, it's clear to anyone with half a braincell it's not going to work out, it's not going to be the utopia they promised, the government can't manage to find its own arse with both hands. Why not pull the emergency brake?
Apart from watching 20 Bercow videos on youtube and reading parts of this thread I haven't really followed the brexit discussion.

Sandgrounder, even though you're most certainly right with everything above, should GB realy produce such a precedent? There was a direct-democratic vote with a clear outcome, to leave the EU. The parlament just has one job now, to leave the EU with the best conditions possible, but they have to leave.
They can't just overrule the popular decision by saying:"Nah, sorry the voters were just to stupid to vote for the right thing".
Promised was something else as shown below.

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Been a while since I've had to use this.

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  #19190  
Old 25.03.2019, 18:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sandgrounder, even though you're most certainly right with everything above, should GB realy produce such a precedent? There was a direct-democratic vote with a clear outcome, to leave the EU. The parlament just has one job now, to leave the EU with the best conditions possible, but they have to leave.
They can't just overrule the popular decision by saying:"Nah, sorry the voters were just to stupid to vote for the right thing".
Promised was something else as shown below.

This would have been the case in a normal country.


In GB, you also have people that vote yes but mean no, non-binding referenda, non-binding petitions, non-binding votes, non-binding decisions, deals that are not deals, and no-deals that are deals, information, misinformation, misinformation about information, information about misinformation.
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  #19191  
Old 25.03.2019, 18:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, because there was a General Election where the current PM ran on a manifesto to honour the referendum result.
And as a result her party lost their Parliamentary majority!
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  #19192  
Old 25.03.2019, 18:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Apart from watching 20 Bercow videos on youtube and reading parts of this thread I haven't really followed the brexit discussion.

Sandgrounder, even though you're most certainly right with everything above, should GB realy produce such a precedent? There was a direct-democratic vote with a clear outcome, to leave the EU. The parlament just has one job now, to leave the EU with the best conditions possible, but they have to leave.
They can't just overrule the popular decision by saying:"Nah, sorry the voters were just to stupid to vote for the right thing".
I agree that the referendum should be respected. I don't agree that the UK is better off out of the EU and there so far hasn't been much evidence to back up Brexit but that's by the by. The UK narrowly gained a victory to "Leave the EU". Fine.

The problem I have is that the way it was handled before, during and after the referendum.

If you are worrying about precedents being set, nothing is worse than the smoke and mirrors that was the whole campaign and subsequent omnishambles surrounding the departure from the EU. Running a campaign like this is indeed a dangerous precedent.

The government is fractured and falling apart, spending far too much time bickering, preening, posturing and furthering their own interests, there is no leadership, no unity and they are apparently going to negotiate either a workable deal with the EU or somehow miraculously embed whole new trade agreements around the world.

At this point in time, they couldn't manage to put together an Ikea desk.

Leave the EU by all means but put a delay on it until you can cobble together a government made up of adults.
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  #19193  
Old 25.03.2019, 18:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There’s no such thing as Remian unchanged:

“There won’t be an EU army”
“There won’t be an EU labour authority”
“There won’t be a standard EU Tax authority”
“There will never be majority voting”
Whereas almost 3 years after the referendum we still do not know what changes Brexit will bring
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  #19194  
Old 25.03.2019, 19:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The only reason Brexit isn't being delivered as promised is because Parliament is choc full of Remainers who have done their utmost to frustrate the process.
Uh-huh. Led by Remainer Theresa May.

Perhaps those MPs are concerned about re-election after all.
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  #19195  
Old 25.03.2019, 20:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

An update on the numbers folks: https://fullfact.org/europe/peoples-vote-march-count/ reckons around 400K tops...
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  #19196  
Old 25.03.2019, 20:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, because there was a General Election where the current PM ran on a manifesto to honour the referendum result.

As did the official opposition, IIRC
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  #19197  
Old 25.03.2019, 21:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Everything so clear today, eh?

The only reason Brexit isn't being delivered as promised is because Parliament is choc full of Remainers who have done their utmost to frustrate the process.
That's a bit over-simplified. May's own party is split with hard-line Brexiteers who do not want ANY deal and those who want a deal, just not this one. And then there are the Remainers.

Brexit isn't being delivered "as promised" because A) the promises of the Leave camp weren't very realistic or entirely clear and B) negotiating a deal is a helluva lot harder than making sound bytes for TV and posting clever tweets.
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  #19198  
Old 25.03.2019, 21:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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An update on the numbers folks: https://fullfact.org/europe/peoples-vote-march-count/ reckons around 400K tops...
Groaned twice and neg repped for suggesting exactly this!
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  #19199  
Old 25.03.2019, 21:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Been a while since I've had to use this.
The piece of text that you're so fond of, has less legal standing than your bum print on a piece of used bog roll. At least that would have your DNA on it. Starter for 10: Legally define 'generation' and 'government'.
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Sandgrounder, even though you're most certainly right with everything above, should GB realy produce such a precedent?
Sorry, but I need to correct this quote on a technicality. GB doesn't include Northern Ireland. The UK does. The whole debarcle would have been a hell of a lot simpler if it had just been GB.
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I agree that the referendum should be respected....
Here we differ. The entire reasoning was to unite one political party, with precious little thought given to the consequences and impact upon the electorate. The concept was too vague. The campaigns were not factual or transparent, and were divisive.

For the result to be respected and enacted correctly, it should have been the beginning of an extended consultative process before Article 50 was triggered, which it wasn't. For want of a better phrase, it should have been politically 'tantric'.
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  #19200  
Old 25.03.2019, 22:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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. For want of a better phrase, it should have been politically 'tantric'.
Crikey. Can you imagine how long a tantric Brexit would last?
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