The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[StirB]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So by your logic all the remoaners in Parliament should shut the hell up, stop interfering and allow the brexiteers to get on with it.

Pretty much. They should only vote YES to anything they adjudge to be as good as or better than being in the EU for their constituents.

	Quote:	StirB
	Pretty much. They should only vote YES to anything they adjudge to be as good as or better than being in the EU for their constituents.

So just ignore the majority of their constituents who voted to leave. You do know how a representative democracy is supposed to work, right?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	StirB
	Pretty much. They should only vote YES to anything as good as or better than being in the EU.

I suspect anything would be better than being tied to an organisation destined to fail, which is why the country voted to leave .

Amused you did not reply to Loz1983 'I presume you feel the same applies to the Scottish independence referendum?'

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Amused you did not reply to Loz1983 'I presume you feel the same applies to the Scottish independence referendum?'

Exactly, for anyone thinking leaving the EU is "too complicated". Imagine trying to unravel 300 years of the union.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So just ignore the majority of their constituents who voted to leave. You do know how a representative democracy is supposed to work, right?

Going back to your Scottish referendum, the result was that they didn't want to break away. That is easy to implement because the situation doesn't change.

I'm sure they'll look at the Brexit mess and take that into consideration if and when there is a referendum in the future.

In the case of Brexit, it's the first time that such a referendum has meant such a drastic change. The problem is that "leaving the EU" has triggered thousands of issues which it seems nobody even considered when Cameron announced plans for the referendum.

It has also emerged that even among Leave voters there is inconsistency as to their view of how the UK should leave and to what degree it should still be involved in the EU.

It's unworkable, as the last 3 years have shown.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So just ignore the majority of their constituents who voted to leave. You do know how a representative democracy is supposed to work, right?

They voted to take control and have a sovereign Parliament. Sometimes you get what you wish for

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	It's unworkable, as the last 3 years have shown.

I think that the very reason we should leave, many remain voters will have realised their folly. Roll on a second referendum

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think that the very reason we should leave, many remain voters will have realised their folly. Roll on a second referendum

If anything it has shown that the government is embarrassingly incompetent. Not exactly a sterling advert for this "sovereignty" thing the Leavers keep bleating about. Seems we still need some adults around to keep order.

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Going back to your Scottish referendum, the result was that they didn't want to break away. That is easy to implement because the situation doesn't change. I'm sure they'll look at the Brexit mess and take that into consideration if and when there is a referendum in the future. In the case of Brexit, it's the first time that such a referendum has meant such a drastic change. The problem is that "leaving the EU" has triggered thousands of issues which it seems nobody even considered when Cameron announced plans for the referendum. It has also emerged that even among Leave voters there is inconsistency as to their view of how the UK should leave and to what degree it should still be involved in the EU. It's unworkable, as the last 3 years have shown.

At least you show consistency in that you believe the Scottish Independence Referendum was a bad idea (I think it was a good thing), will be interesting to see what StirB has to say

[eng_ch]

Yesterday's process was only intended to be part 1, part 2 on Monday. Interesting analysis here:

https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/st...31541843591168

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	At least you show consistency in that you believe the Scottish Independence Referendum was a bad idea (I think it was a good thing), will be interesting to see what StirB has to say

Where did I say it was a good or a bad idea?

I pointed out that it is easier to implement the results of a referendum when the results point to a no-change in the status quo.

Are you doing that "putting words into people's mouths" thing again? It's not attractive so stop it.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think that the very reason we should leave, many remain voters will have realised their folly. Roll on a second referendum

I don't think a second referendum will happen, but if it does Leave would win again. Read this from Dominic Cummings (aka Benedict Cumberbatch), who led the official Vote Leave campaign (the one with the bus and nothing to do with Farage). Some interesting things he has to say:

	Quote:
	very few seem to realise that a ‘second referendum’ ... ‘the EU’ would not even be the main issue... it will be about YOU AND YOUR PARTIES, dear MPs...

	Quote:
	Obviously some of these characters genuinely believe in the global conspiracy. Some well-educated people are incredibly easy to fool with conspiracies partly because their defences are low — they think they are rational and ‘advertising works on thick plebs not well-educated rational people like me’.

This last one sounds like the view of many of those on here...

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Where did I say it was a good or a bad idea? I pointed out that it is easier to implement the results of a referendum when the results point to a no-change in the status quo. Are you doing that "putting words into people's mouths" thing again? It's not attractive so stop it.

Answer a straight question then, do you believe the Scottish Referendum was a good or a bad thing? If you think it was a good thing, do you think had the Scots voted for independence it would have been easy to implement?

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I don't think a second referendum will happen, but if it does Leave would win again. Read this from Dominic Cummings (aka Benedict Cumberbatch), who led the official Vote Leave campaign (the one with the bus and nothing to do with Farage). Some interesting things he has to say: This last one sounds like the view of many of those on here...

So to sum up:

Leave would win again
Well educated people are easy to fool
Advertising only works on thick plebs

So if Leave wins again, you are saying the majority are thick plebs and educated fools?

Where does that leave Remainers? According to Cummings they don't fall for advertising and they don't fall for Leave narrative.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Answer a straight question then, do you believe the Scottish Referendum was a good or a bad thing? If you think it was a good thing, do you think had the Scots voted for independence it would have been easy to implement?

Why is that relevant? My point was never about whether the referendum was a good or a bad thing. I'm not Scottish, it's not my bag.

My point was purely to illustrate that a referendum which results in no change can be seamlessly implemented.

"Feelings" about it are irrelevant.

[Ace1]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think that the very reason we should leave, many remain voters will have realised their folly. Roll on a second referendum

It's difficult to see how anyone who voted to remain would have now changed their mind - what sort of thought process do you imagine taking place?

Whereas I'm sure that many who voted to leave did so for mainly emotional reasons, without having any real understanding of the consequences (but then neither did the politicians, seemingly) such that it's easy to see how they might reconsider in the light of what they've now learned.

I can't help wondering how things might have gone had Boris been put in charge instead of Mrs May-or-may-not.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Seems we still need some adults around to keep order.

The problem is that he's mostly imbibed with the cognac.

Or coffee even, apparently

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	This is very true. What's the point in voting on a Customs Union when the withdrawal agreement would have to be agreed beforehand?

Because that, in addition to May's agreement, could command a majority in this parliament, but it's guaranteed to send Brexiteers into a tailspin.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So by your logic all the remoaners in Parliament should shut the hell up, stop interfering and allow the brexiteers to get on with it.

No because that lot wouldn't even come to an agreement on the vellum to be used for their business cards, never mind the font, point, colour, etc...

	Quote:	marton
	They voted to take control and have a sovereign Parliament. Sometimes you get what you wish for

Exactly!
It astonishes me that there are still people out there who fail to see that the reason for all their ills, that may have prompted their Leave vote in the first place, lay within their own parliament and not the EU parliament. Now that the focus is purely upon the UK parliament, they'll begin to see where the problem lay all along. One can hope...

	Quote:	Loz1983
	This last one sounds like the view of many of those on here...

Your wrong for the simple reason that people like me, were not targeted by the Leave advertising campaign. I'm not on twitter, and one glance (by a bot) through my Facebook friends list or at my previous employer, would put me firmly in the 33% that they didn't waste money in targetting. The only place I ever saw the Leave campaign's ads was on EF. I cannot emphasise that strongly enough.

[Sandgrounder]

	Quote:	amogles
	The problem is that he's mostly imbibed with the cognac. Or coffee even, apparently

A guy who is pissed and wired has a better handle on things than the entire UK government?

Hardly something to be proud of, eh?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Ace1
	It's difficult to see how anyone who voted to remain would have now changed their mind - what sort of thought process do you imagine taking place?

If you are unable to imagine such a scenario, you need to look outside the bubble you're living in. Having their eyes opened to how the EU operates & being disillusioned how MP's have behaved.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Ace1
	It's difficult to see how anyone who voted to remain would have now changed their mind - what sort of thought process do you imagine taking place? Whereas I'm sure that many who voted to leave did so for mainly emotional reasons, without having any real understanding of the consequences (but then neither did the politicians, seemingly) such that it's easy to see how they might reconsider in the light of what they've now learned. I can't help wondering how things might have gone had Boris been put in charge instead of Mrs May-or-may-not.

I've spoken to plenty of people who voted remain who also did so for emotional reasons. Mention the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg to thekm and they start foaming at the mouth.