The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH - Page 968

#**19341** 28.03.2019, 10:05

	Quote:
	it's difficult to see how anyone who voted to remain would have now changed their mind - what sort of thought process do you imagine taking place? Whereas i'm sure that many who voted to leave did so for mainly emotional reasons, without having any real understanding of the consequences (but then neither did the politicians, seemingly) such that it's easy to see how they might reconsider in the light of what they've now learned. I can't help wondering how things might have gone had boris been put in charge instead of mrs may-or-may-not.

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Blueangel · #**19342** 28.03.2019, 10:08

Back to business....

The full breakdown of how individual MPs voted is here... https://news.sky.com/story/how-your-...plans-11676893

Logic (for those of who still prize it) would state that, all the options which were defeated by a clear majority (326+) should be removed from the next ballot paper. This may, or may not, make room for further options to be added. so the next ballot paper should, in theory, contain...

Norway + model
Leave with a UK customs union
Labour Party alternative
Revoke Article 50
Second referendum

#**19343** 28.03.2019, 10:10

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Back to business.... The full breakdown of how individual MPs voted is here... https://news.sky.com/story/how-your-...plans-11676893 Logic (for those of who still prize it) would state that, all the options which were defeated by a clear majority (326+) should be removed from the next ballot paper. This may, or may not, make room for further options to be added. so the next ballot paper should, in theory, contain... Norway + model Leave with a UK customs union Labour Party alternative Revoke Article 50 Second referendum

Bottom two votes get to perform a dance-off?

#**19344** 28.03.2019, 10:13

Quote:

fatmanfilms

Quote:

It's difficult to see how anyone who voted to remain would have now changed their mind - what sort of thought process do you imagine taking place?

Having their eyes opened to how the EU operates & being disillusioned how MP's have behaved.

Right, yeah, because EU bureaucracy and inefficiency weren't mentioned at all in the run-up to the original referendum, and conduct of MPs was always assumed to be 100% ethical and squeeky clean up to that point...

#**19345** 28.03.2019, 10:23

	Quote:
	So to sum up: Leave would win again Well educated people are easy to fool Advertising only works on thick plebs So if Leave wins again, you are saying the majority are thick plebs and educated fools?

Right back at you.

	Quote:
	Are you doing that "putting words into people's mouths" thing again? It's not attractive so stop it.

	Quote:
	Why is that relevant? My point was never about whether the referendum was a good or a bad thing. I'm not Scottish, it's not my bag. My point was purely to illustrate that a referendum which results in no change can be seamlessly implemented. "Feelings" about it are irrelevant.

Just give a straight answer. I'm sure StirB won't mind.

Blueangel · #**19346** 28.03.2019, 10:27

	Quote:
	Bottom two votes get to perform a dance-off?

I would pay good money to see BoJo and Rees-Mogg perform the Argentine Tango

#**19347** 28.03.2019, 10:31

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Right back at you.

So then make your point... What I wrote is how I understood your post from the information you provided. Is that not what you meant?

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Just give a straight answer. I'm sure StirB won't mind.

Why are you banging on about getting a "straight answer" to a point I wasn't even making??

Is this the quality of your debate? **waits for pithy comment from MC**

You still haven't pointed out where I stated whether the Scottish referendum was either good or bad. Show me that then I can at least attempt to answer your currently irrelevant question.

#**19348** 28.03.2019, 10:32

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So just ignore the majority of their constituents who voted to leave. You do know how a representative democracy is supposed to work, right?

I dont know about StirB, but I do.

MPs are supposed to represent their constituents, i.e. support and express their majority view—which may or may not accord with the national majority. You may be surprised to learn that not every constituency produced a majority "Leave" vote; consequently, many MPs support Remain because that is the wish of the majority of their constituents.

Furthermore, as we've all discovered in the last couple of years, "Leave" doesn't simply mean "Leave". It's far more nuanced than that, and it's the representative MPs' responsibility to sort out which version of Leave would work best for their constituents. So although you may be a confirmed "no deal" Brexiteer, your MP may well take a different approach because s/he believes that to be in the best interests of his/her constituents. And you, as a proud participant in a representative democracy, have to suck that up.

marton · #**19349** 28.03.2019, 10:34

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Answer a straight question then, do you believe the Scottish Referendum was a good or a bad thing? If you think it was a good thing, do you think had the Scots voted for independence it would have been easy to implement?

They clearly stated they did not have an opinion?

What is there not to understand?

Stop displaying your Leaver credentials

#**19350** 28.03.2019, 10:35

	Quote:
	Bottom two votes get to perform a dance-off?

Maybe a public phone-in where everybody gets to vote on the...

Oh. Wait.

Blueangel · #**19351** 28.03.2019, 10:40

	Quote:
	Maybe a public phone-in where everybody gets to vote on the... Oh. Wait.

Yup! It's a whole new theme for the first episode of Britain's Got Talent.

#**19352** 28.03.2019, 10:47

	Quote:
	I dont know about StirB, but I do. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents, i.e. support and express their majority view—which may or may not accord with the national majority. You may be surprised to learn that not every constituency produced a majority "Leave" vote; consequently, many MPs support Remain because that is the wish of the majority of their constituents. Furthermore, as we've all discovered in the last couple of years, "Leave" doesn't simply mean "Leave". It's far more nuanced than that, and it's the representative MPs' responsibility to sort out which version of Leave would work best for their constituents. So although you may be a confirmed "no deal" Brexiteer, your MP may well take a different approach because s/he believes that to be in the best interests of his/her constituents. And you, as a proud participant in a representative democracy, have to suck that up.

If you wish to go by constituencies, about 405 verses 245 voted to Leave. Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy. HTH.

#**19353** 28.03.2019, 10:49

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If you wish to go by constituencies, about 405 verses 245 voted to Leave. Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy. HTH.

Maybe they should abolish the whip, then?

#**19354** 28.03.2019, 10:50

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If you wish to go by constituencies, about 405 verses 245 voted to Leave. Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy. HTH.

And yet their constituents elected them SINCE the referendum.

#**19355** 28.03.2019, 10:52

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If you wish to go by constituencies, about 405 verses 245 voted to Leave. Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy. HTH.

I've not been following the parliamentary debates in detail, so could you please point to where there's been a vote in the house to Remain?

#**19356** 28.03.2019, 10:52

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Kenneth Clarke's customs union vote was close.

Customs union is actually relatively pointless without membership of the single market.

#**19357** 28.03.2019, 10:57

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If you wish to go by constituencies, about 405 verses 245 voted to Leave. Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy. HTH.

In addition to the other useful (and correct) responses to your post, let me add (I should have this permanently copied to a clipboard, ready to paste just for you):

Did you READ past the first line of my post, all the way to the end of the third paragraph?

#**19358** 28.03.2019, 10:58

	Quote:
	And yet their constituents elected them SINCE the referendum.

Yes, with both main party manifestos pledging to leave and honour the referendum result. Feel like we're going around in circles here.

#**19359** 28.03.2019, 10:59

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy.

Also... What evidence do you have for that statement?

#**19360** 28.03.2019, 11:00

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yes, with both main party manifestos pledging to leave and honour the referendum result. Feel like we're going around in circles here.

The parties are national. MPs are local.