The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

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	The parties are national. MPs are local.

This is utterly irrelevant. Any MP that represents a political party signs up to its manifesto.

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	Also... What evidence do you have for that statement?

Go back and search the thread, I'm not going to dig it out again.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yes, with both main party manifestos pledging to leave and honour the referendum result. Feel like we're going around in circles here.

...and with neither of them promising/threatening a hard Brexit. In fact the Tories more-or-less promised what May delivered.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	So just ignore the majority of their constituents who voted to leave. You do know how a representative democracy is supposed to work, right?

Two points...

1) Leave aren't the majority in every constituency, are they?

2) People elect a representative in a representative democracy (whodathunkit). The responsibility of the elected official is then to use their best judgment to decide what is best for their constituents, regardless of the views of said constituents (although they will I am sure often take this into account.

To paraphrase Edmund Burke:

The duty of a representative is not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but also to use their own judgement in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters

How do you believe a Representative Democracy works?

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	...and with neither of them promising/threatening a hard Brexit. In fact the Tories more-or-less promised what May delivered.

From the Conservative Manifesto 2017:

“The negotiations will undoubtedly be tough, and there will be give and take on both sides, but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK.”

Theresa May's deal is a terrible deal.

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	Two points... 1) Leave aren't the majority in every constituency, are they? 2) People elect a representative in a representative democracy (whodathunkit). The responsibility of the elected official is then to use their best judgment to decide what is best for their constituents, regardless of the views of said constituents (although they will I am sure often take this into account. To paraphrase Edmund Burke: The duty of a representative is not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but also to use their own judgement in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters How do you believe a Representative Democracy works?

Normally you may have a point, but there was a referendum. Parliament said clearly that it was too an important decision to decide for themselves. The people voted, and the result is known. If MPs ignore the vote of their constituents then they stop representing them.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	From the Conservative Manifesto 2017: “The negotiations will undoubtedly be tough, and there will be give and take on both sides, but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK.” Theresa May's deal is a terrible deal.

So all that's on offer is a smorgasbord of anything from "terrible" to "utterly shite". No wonder it's so hard to come to an agreement.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Go back and search the thread, I'm not going to dig it out again.

You made the claim; the onus of proof is on you. I don't believe you can prove your claim.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Normally you may have a point, but there was a referendum. Parliament said clearly that it was too an important decision to decide for themselves. The people voted, and the result is known. If MPs ignore the vote of their constituents then they stop representing them.

As noted a million times before, the referendum was advisory. Unless you are suggesting that advisory vote completely changed how our parliament works, then MPs are still free to represent their constituency as best they see fit.

Parliament, whether they want to dodge tough questions or not, are solely responsible for the decision and implementation of Brexit; they cannot abdicate responsibility because their collective anii are squeaking like a chewed orange - the opinions of the people, other than for electing their representatives, are more or less irrelevant. Shit system, but that's the rub.

Also, happy to give you my opinion on questions about the first Scottish indy ref and any subsequent ones- you seem desperate to know my views, so fire away.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Normally you may have a point, but there was a referendum. Parliament said clearly that it was too an important decision to decide for themselves. The people voted, and the result is known. If MPs ignore the vote of their constituents then they stop representing them.

What were the wishes (at the time, more than two years ago) of the constituents? For those who voted Leave, did they want to crash out with no deal? Did they look at Norway and say, "I'll have some of that, thanks"? Did they want to be governed locally but still keep their worry-free holidays in Benidorm? Did they... You get the picture. I hope.

MPs have to work with what they've got to try to get the best result for their constituents, even when those constituents didn't (and couldn't) express exactly what they want. Quite a difficult position to be in, don't you think?

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	As noted a million times before, the referendum was advisory. Unless you are suggesting that advisory vote completely changed how our parliament works, then MPs are still free to represent their constituency as best they see fit. Parliament, whether they want to dodge tough questions or not, are solely responsible for the decision and implementation of Brexit; they cannot abdicate responsibility because their collective anii are squeaking like a chewed orange - the opinions of the people, other than for electing their representatives - are more or less irrelevant. Shit system, but that's the rub.

You're right, it was advisory. However if MPs choose to ignore the vote then it'll have profound consequences on themselves and also the democracy of the country. The latter is long overdue in my opinion.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If you wish to go by constituencies, about 405 verses 245 voted to Leave. Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy. HTH.

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	Also... What evidence do you have for that statement?

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Go back and search the thread, I'm not going to dig it out again.

So you have no evidence? Wow, it's not like you to make totally unsupported statements.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	You're right, it was advisory. However if MPs choose to ignore the vote then it'll have profound consequences on themselves and also the democracy of the country. The latter is long overdue in my opinion.

Of course, every decision an MP makes has consequences for themselves. Brexit is no different. If it swings the needle in their constituency too far, they lose their job...same as if they close the local hospital or put too many speedbumps outside the local Asda.

Will this lead to a reform of our system of government? I doubt it. I'm with you that it is in serious need of modernization though and hope this whole fiasco instigates that.

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	What were the wishes (at the time, more than two years ago) of the constituents? For those who voted Leave, did they want to crash out with no deal? Did they look at Norway and say, "I'll have some of that, thanks"? Did they want to be governed locally but still keep their worry-free holidays in Benidorm? Did they... You get the picture. I hope. MPs have to work with what they've got to try to get the best result for their constituents, even when those constituents didn't (and couldn't) express exactly what they want. Quite a difficult position to be in, don't you think?

Yes, it is difficult, but that's what they're paid to do. It's also exacerbated when the Parliament is choc full of people who don't accept the referendum result too. And just because it's a difficult task, it doesn't mean that the answer to remain in the EU.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yes, it is difficult, but that's what they're paid to do. It's also exacerbated when the Parliament is choc full of people who don't accept the referendum result too. And just because it's a difficult task, it doesn't mean that the answer to remain in the EU.

I would suggest it would be prudent to not just leave something without a better alternative, just because people voted for it.

This is the point of a Representative Democracy; occasionally, you have to protect the people from themselves.

Go back to the drawing board, figure out what Brexit will entail, ask the people again when we know what we're voting for, not some nebulous Brexit means Brexit waffle.

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	I would suggest it would be prudent to not just leave something without a better alternative, just because people voted for it. This is the point of a Representative Democracy; occasionally, you have to protect the people from themselves. Go back to the drawing board, figure out what Brexit will entail, ask the people again when we know what we're voting for, not some nebulous Brexit means Brexit waffle.

But the only reason there's nothing better is due to the sheer incompetence of the elected representatives. For months now, no one has been talking about the EU, the problem lies solely at Westminster. It's a national embarrassment.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If you wish to go by constituencies, about 405 verses 245 voted to Leave. Many more MPs than 245 are supporting Remain. This is not a representative democracy. HTH.

For the millionth time... there are 650 United Kingdom Parliamentary constituencies. The EU Refendum was based upon the vote in 382 voting areas (381 in the UK, 1 in Gibraltar) .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U...eas_and_counts

Therefore, many MPs cannot truly claim to represent the votes of their constituents when they don't know the exact voting figures for the people they are elected to represent. END OF!!!

And as for their 2017 manifestos, many, many of the Conservative's manifesto pledges have not been acted upon. It's nothing new.

[curley]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Yes, it is difficult, but that's what they're paid to do. It's also exacerbated when the Parliament is choc full of people who don't accept the referendum result too. And just because it's a difficult task, it doesn't mean that the answer to remain in the EU.

It has frequently crossed my mind after the past two years that GB doesn't seem to be capable to function. Therefore it might be better for it to just stay in the EU.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	For the millionth time... there are 650 United Kingdom Parliamentary constituencies. The EU Refendum was based upon the vote in 382 voting areas (381 in the UK, 1 in Gibraltar) . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U...eas_and_counts Therefore, many MPs cannot truly claim to represent the votes of their constituents when they don't know the exact voting figures for the people they are elected to represent. END OF!!! And as for their 2017 manifestos, many, many of the Conservative's manifesto pledges have not been acted upon. It's nothing new.

This is both wrong and a lame excuse at the same time. Just to satisfy 22 yards and Ace1 though:

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It must get tiring being wrong all the time? Brexit: votes by constituency Results of the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum Results of the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum by constituency

	Quote:	Loz1983
	But the only reason there's nothing better is due to the sheer incompetence of the elected representatives. For months now, no one has been talking about the EU, the problem lies solely at Westminster. It's a national embarrassment.

This I agree with.

I think a lot of people have backed away from Leave because of this. If this is what the UK has to look forward to, it's not exactly a rosy future with those idiots at the helm, is it?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	This is both wrong and a lame excuse at the same time.

Prove exactly how it is wrong, and how each MP can know exactly how their own constituents voted in the EU referendum, to the total exclusion of neighbouring Parliamentary constituencies?

Edit: To go further, with the last Wiki link you've offered, there's a citation link next to the stats offered. In this case, it's No.3. The link gives this citation, which makes it invalid as a form of legitimate reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Result...ncyestimates-3