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amogles 25.05.2016 09:53

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 2593492)
You're ignoring central parts of the story:

The piper offered to rid the city of all mice and rats, for a fee of course. Once the city notables had agreed, he played his tune upon which the mice and rats came to him. He walked into the Weser (a river) with the animals following him to their wet death. But the notables refused to pay, so he left the city angy and embittered. Some time later he returned in a different shape(body?) to play his pipe once again during church service time. Only this time the children came forward, and followed him out of town when he left. Nobody ever heard of them.

How is this antisemitic?

ah yes, and no doubt you also believe George Orwell's animal farm is just a nice story about some cute farm animals who get rid of the nasty farmer and then have some fun adventures together. All those who see allegory in it, or god forbid, a criticism of socialism, are just deluding themselves, right?

marton 19.07.2016 00:06

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Commons votes for Trident renewal by majority of 355
Motion to update nuclear deterrent passed by 472 to 117, with support of over half Labour MPs but not Jeremy Corbyn.

Source

Labour party needs to somehow become unified!

In total, 140 Labour MPs voted in favour of the motion and 47 against, with 40 absent and one abstention.

NotAllThere 19.07.2016 07:55

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2593737)
ah yes, and no doubt you also believe George Orwell's animal farm is just a nice story about some cute farm animals who get rid of the nasty farmer and then have some fun adventures together. All those who see allegory in it, or god forbid, a criticism of socialism, are just deluding themselves, right?

It is a critique of the Russian Revolution and its aftermath, not socialism in general. Orwell was a socialist himself.

First time I've ever heard of the Pied Piper being anti-semitic. I am aware that the story was appropriated by Nazi propaganda, but that's just guilt by association.

1) looked foreign
2) wore different clothes from anybody else
3) was a skilled musician
4) could communicate with vermin, and could make rats vanish
5) would only save his fellow citizens from their destruction if they promised him money for it
6) stole children, possibly ate them.

Now if that isn't a medievil caricature of a Jew, I don't know what is.


Hmm. Not proven.

1) Applies to many - but not actually part of every version of the story. In one, a man claims the piper is his great grandfather come back from the grave.
2) But were they especially multi-coloured while everyone else wore drab clothes?
3) Applies to many - not just Jews could play music, or even flutes.
4) Not aware that this was ever an anti-semitic slur
5) Applies to many. It's called "capitalism".
6) Blood libel. <-- yay, got one.

I'm further not convinced as there seems to be no scholarly articles, or even trendy left wing articles decrying the Pied Piper as an anti-semitic story. Reading the various versions, there's not much I can see that identifies the Piper as Jewish. If the story were truly anti-semitic, why would it not specifically say the he's a Jew? It's not as though medieval Europe was subject to the rigours of Political Correctness.

I did find this Jewish blog that links the Piper with the Messiah. Again, if the story were widely understood to be anti-semitic, why would a Jewish writer speak positively of it?

It's a bit like "handicapped" meaning "cap-in-hand" and therefore demeaning to the differently-abled - it isn't. Or niggardly being a racist word - it isn't.

Pied Piper anti-semitic? No, it isn't.

The best retelling of the Pied Piper story is Pratchett's "The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents". Think about... :D

Wollishofener 19.07.2016 10:04

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 2582452)
Exactly, Labour and the Left have been screaming "RACIST" at anyone and everyone for years. Boot's on the other foot and they don't know what to do. Maybe now they'll think of something else to shout at people they don't like.


whatever. Hamas and Hizb'ullah are extreme RIGHTwingers

NotAllThere 19.07.2016 10:07

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 2625563)
whatever. Hamas and Hizb'ullah are extreme RIGHTwingers

Yes, but in their favour, they're being oppressed by the Israelis. :rolleyes:

amogles 19.07.2016 13:22

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 2625563)
whatever. Hamas and Hizb'ullah are extreme RIGHTwingers

In what respect are they right wingers?

Because the combination national + socialist automatically makes national socialist?

Isn't the problem rather that people mistakenly assume that national socialism (always) comes from the right?

Reb77Br 19.07.2016 16:16

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Neil Kinnock: ‘I’m bloody angry. Only anger is keeping me from falling into despair’


"“People divide into those who are vain, and those who are not ... And Jeremy is a vain man.”"

But it looks as if Jeremy Corbyn is going to romp home in the leadership elections. The Tories will be pleased!

amogles 19.07.2016 17:39

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
some very revealing comments there

Quote:

Kinnock hadn’t planned to say anything. “I had absolutely no intention of speaking. My view was, this is for the MPs. But then Dennis Skinner spoke. And in my view gave an interpretation of history through which I lived that was seriously erratic. He said, ‘This PLP mustn’t think that it’s more important than the rest of the party.’ Well, the fact of the matter is, he’s been sitting in meetings since 1970, and he knows damn well that there’s never been the merest suggestion that a view should be taken because the PLP is more important. It’s taken because the PLP has a duty it can’t escape. It’s not about relative importance. And he knew that damn well.

Castro 19.07.2016 18:39

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
No doubt he's also bloody angry that the Brussels gravy train ride is finally over for him and his missus.

Reb77Br 19.07.2016 22:27

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2625969)
No doubt he's also bloody angry that the Brussels gravy train ride is finally over for him and his missus.

But he no longer works for the EU. :confused:

Quote:

In 1995 he retired from the House of Commons to become a member of the European Commission and served as its vice president from 1999 to 2004. Kinnock was named a life peer in 2005.
https://www.britannica.com/biography...k-of-Bedwellty

marton 19.07.2016 22:31

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reb77Br (Post 2626075)
But he no longer works for the EU. :confused:

He managed to reduce the salaries of all the EU civil servants; not bad for an unelected beaurocrat :D

Blueangel 19.07.2016 23:59

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reb77Br
Neil Kinnock: ‘I’m bloody angry. Only anger is keeping me from falling into despair’


"“People divide into those who are vain, and those who are not ... And Jeremy is a vain man.”"

It's actually a very well written article and the facts are all checkable. It also matches my memory of the history of the Labour Party. Found myself saying "Bloody hell! I remember that!" quite a few times.

Sbrinz 29.05.2017 21:27

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
I am "bloody worried" that Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbot will be leading Britain soon.

I fear it will be in the wrong direction, and on top of the Brexit idiocy I can see Britain becoming a basket case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Abbott

Guest 30.05.2017 08:25

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 2792832)
I am "bloody worried" that Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbot will be leading Britain soon.

I fear it will be in the wrong direction, and on top of the Brexit idiocy I can see Britain becoming a basket case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Abbott

Why are you worried? It's very unlikely to happen, however if it does, just imagine the lols when Diane Abbott is home secretary :)

marton 30.05.2017 08:32

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 2792943)
Why are you worried? It's very unlikely to happen, however if it does, just imagine the lols when Diane Abbott is home secretary :)

Because it is real life, not a reality comedy show?

Guest 30.05.2017 08:37

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2792946)
Because it is real life, not a reality comedy show?

You reckon?

Sbrinz 30.05.2017 09:27

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Diane Abbot was on Sunday breakfast TV and claimed she would make an excellent secreatary to the Home Office (Ministry of Home Affairs). After university she became an administration trainee (a fast track route to senior positions in the UK Civil Service at the Home Office 1976 to 1978), she claims she "knows how the ministry works" ....

Pashosh 05.11.2017 19:27

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Old habits die hard- Corbyn supporting MEND (who's anti democrarcy,anti gay and antisemitism are well documented).

Reb77Br 05.04.2018 14:53

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Thread revival.

About the media furore over anti-Semitism in the Labour party, I tend to think Jeremy Corbyn is more likely to be clueless than an anti-Semite but he gives an impression of such perpetual smugness and complacency, it's hard not to wonder whether he can really ensure that the party tackles the problem.

The Economist: Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitism problem
Haaretz: No One Gets to Say Who Are Good Jews. Not Even Jews

amogles 05.04.2018 15:13

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reb77Br (Post 2931011)
Thread revival.

About the media furore over anti-Semitism in the Labour party, I tend to think Jeremy Corbyn is more likely to be clueless than an anti-Semite but he gives an impression of such perpetual smugness and complacency, it's hard not to wonder whether he can really ensure that the party tackles the problem.

The Economist: Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitism problem

I don't think he's clueless. With his history of activism, he should fully understand how important the messaging is, not just in terms of what is said on the lines but also between the lines. But even if he genuinely didn't see what was going on, at his level cluelessness isn't an excuse. The fact that he gets away with it for so long shows that he is not the only one holding such views, or at least, there is among his followers a tendency to look away or explain away when potentially anti-semitic messages are being spread.

To some extent, anti-capitalist imagery and language has always had a certain overlap with anti-semitic imagery. Displeasure at extremes of capitalism, or abuses by banking cartels etc have in the past been used to fuel the fires of anti-semitism. This is precisely why, when crafting such messages today, one needs to be very aware of that line. If a fervent anti-capitalist approves caricatures of hooked-nosed money lenders while at the same time befriending Palestianian terrorists, and we are supposed to believe that is really a genuine mistake ... wouldn't , as a minumum, an apology and a correction be appropriate?


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