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  #221  
Old 05.04.2018, 15:18
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

article is behind a paywall unfortunately.
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  #222  
Old 05.04.2018, 23:18
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

The Left and Labor Party are and always have been filled with Anti-Semites. So what’s being reported is nothing new. What is amusing however is that ever since they’ve been able to get away with it they’ve been screaming “RACIST” at anyone and everyone so inow it’s nice that they get to sample a taste of their own medicine.
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  #223  
Old 06.04.2018, 00:33
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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I don't think he's clueless. With his history of activism, he should fully understand how important the messaging is, not just in terms of what is said on the lines but also between the lines.
I think he's astonishingly clueless and maliable. He's that over enthusiatic, 'right on' student that you avoided at college because he annoyed the crap out of everyone with his seething indignation and weekly petitions.

But besides my unending vitriol and venom towards Corbyn, and being totally honest here...I freaking hate him...he's been the vice chair of so many causes that I doubt if he ever fully understood any of them.

What he has done this week regarding fighting antisemitism within the Labour Party is the equivalent of vowing to eradicate crowd violence and abuse from football then attending the Millwall Supporters' club annual dinner, 'to show his solidarity and connect with the young people'.

This is just one example of his many follies...

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Throughout his time on the back benches the register of Members interests show payments adding up to £20,000 for hosting phone-ins on Press TV, the Iranian state-owned broadcaster that used to broadcast from studios in Ealing before it had its broadcasting license revoked by Ofcom in 2012.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8138696.html

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The Left and Labor Party are and always have been filled with Anti-Semites. So what’s being reported is nothing new.
Oh yes it is. Never before has Labour had this piece of human waste in the hot seat. This is the Millennials icon who can do no wrong. They vote for him because he's a vegan. They vote for him because he claims to be a pacifist. Pacifist my arse! He's a dangerous little shit with a whole host of other dangerous little knobheads fighting his corner.

Did I say I hate him? And before anyone says "But 'hate' is a strong word"...Yeah! I know it is! But I've had over 30yrs to come to this conclusion, and nothing that he's done in the last 30+yrs has changed my mind one iota.
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  #224  
Old 06.04.2018, 03:26
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

Corbyn seems to ride the wave of resentment.

How long before people get tired of it in the UK - who knows.
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  #225  
Old 06.04.2018, 07:40
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Totally reminds me of the thing going on in German media right now, calling the leaders of AfD "Rattenfänger".

Rattenfänger of course is a reference to the fairy tale of the Pied Piper of Hamlyn, who, if I recall correctly

1) looked foreign
2) wore different clothes from anybody else
3) was a skilled musician
4) could communicate with vermin, and could make rats vanish
5) would only save his fellow citizens from their destruction if they promised him money for it
6) stole children, possibly ate them.

Now if that isn't a medievil caricature of a Jew, I don't know what is.

Yet when I tell my German friends that I find it strange that they are trying to discredit a far-right party by insinuating that their leadership is Jewish. And that even if they are Jewish, what does it matter? And what about Germany's historic lesson that being antisemitic is bad, they look at me and refuse to see.
Lol, that's not only about Jews. It's the definition of "Otherness".
Old dialogue I know, but some things never change.

So, is Corbyn the biggest anti-semite alive?
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  #226  
Old 06.04.2018, 08:38
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Lol, that's not only about Jews. It's the definition of "Otherness".
Old dialogue I know, but some things never change.

So, is Corbyn the biggest anti-semite alive?
No Corbyn is not. He has failed to deal with it. He had opportunity in the past to sort it out but did not.. not just him, the whole party needs to show a willingness to turn this around. Corbyn in the mean time seems to have handed his critics a big stick.. and going by the tory newspapers noise levels, the purpose of the stick and the usual smears have overlapped, yet again.

People in the UK are not tired of Corbyn.. what they are tired of is the continuing fall out from cutbacks. Council tax has recently been increased and services see cuts again as local councils fail to find the funds to keep communities, schools, hospitals, basic services afloat. People have bigger worries..
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  #227  
Old 06.04.2018, 10:37
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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People in the UK are not tired of Corbyn.. what they are tired of is the continuing fall out from cutbacks. Council tax has recently been increased and services see cuts again as local councils fail to find the funds to keep communities, schools, hospitals, basic services afloat. People have bigger worries..
Exactly and what better way to distract from those worries than attack the messenger?
Anyone who has any doubt as to the manufactured and targeted nature of these smear campaigns only has to look at some of the fantastical things Corbyn has been accused of:
  • Being a communist Czech spy
  • Being an anti-semite
  • Being staunchly pro-IRA
  • Supporting Hezbollah and HAMAS
  • Wanting to bring down the monarchy
  • Refusing to support the England football team
  • Colluding with fellow Marxist John McDonnell to bankrupt Britain
  • Thinks the death of Osama bin Laden was a tragedy
  • Mourns the assassination of Jihadi John
  • Wants Britain to abolish its Army
  • Having a base almost exclusively made up of Stalinists, Trotskyites and Anarchists

Rupert Murdoch, Paul Dacre and the shower of right wing websites wouldn't be so vociferous in their attacks if they didn't consider him a threat, which is pretty much what he has become thanks to 8 years of Tory austerity, ransacking of public services and increased wealth inequality.

Child poverty has increased for three consecutive years and is now at its highest level since 2010. Homelessness up 169 per cent since 2010, rising crime, overburdened schools and hospitals, unrepaired roads, uncollected bins and closed libraries and children’s centres. Meanwhile home ownership has fallen to 63.5 per cent, the lowest level since 1987 and the fourth-lowest in the EU.

So yes, let's attack Corbyn
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  #228  
Old 06.04.2018, 10:51
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Exactly and what better way to distract from those worries than attack the messenger?
Anyone who has any doubt as to the manufactured and targeted nature of these smear campaigns only has to look at some of the fantastical things Corbyn has been accused of:
  • Being a communist Czech spy
  • Being an anti-semite
  • Being staunchly pro-IRA
  • Supporting Hezbollah and HAMAS
  • Wanting to bring down the monarchy
  • Refusing to support the England football team
  • Colluding with fellow Marxist John McDonnell to bankrupt Britain
  • Thinks the death of Osama bin Laden was a tragedy
  • Mourns the assassination of Jihadi John
  • Wants Britain to abolish its Army
  • Having a base almost exclusively made up of Stalinists, Trotskyites and Anarchists

Rupert Murdoch, Paul Dacre and the shower of right wing websites wouldn't be so vociferous in their attacks if they didn't consider him a threat, which is pretty much what he has become thanks to 8 years of Tory austerity, ransacking of public services and increased wealth inequality.

Child poverty has increased for three consecutive years and is now at its highest level since 2010. Homelessness up 169 per cent since 2010, rising crime, overburdened schools and hospitals, unrepaired roads, uncollected bins and closed libraries and children’s centres. Meanwhile home ownership has fallen to 63.5 per cent, the lowest level since 1987 and the fourth-lowest in the EU.

So yes, let's attack Corbyn
Herein lies the problem.

The other lot are so bad that, by definition, Corbyn must be good. And if he appears to have blemishes or be missing the plot entirely, lets either deny that or find excuses rather than do something.

Labour supporters urgently need to come out of this mode. As long as they keep on finding excuses, things won't change.

Otherwise we reach the point that we say, antisemistm is Ok as long as you promise to spend money on hospitals.
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  #229  
Old 06.04.2018, 10:52
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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No Corbyn is not. He has failed to deal with it..
I don't think he has just failed to deal with it. He is blind to it.
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  #230  
Old 06.04.2018, 11:30
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Herein lies the problem.

The other lot are so bad that, by definition, Corbyn must be good. And if he appears to have blemishes or be missing the plot entirely, lets either deny that or find excuses rather than do something.

Labour supporters urgently need to come out of this mode. As long as they keep on finding excuses, things won't change.

Otherwise we reach the point that we say, antisemistm is Ok as long as you promise to spend money on hospitals.
Ah, but no.. he has always been consistent in his approach to basic level services so in that alone has power over the Tories. No one is really being pulled into the antisemitism furore, but, that said, the Labour party are wholly responsible now to get rid of the bigotry if they are to move forward.

At every turn, the mess the country is in is being deflected and side-stepped as not important because Corbyn's screw ups are the real issue threatening every man woman and child in the land. FFS! We all see it for what it is. Parents, students, kids, old folks, sick, mentally vulnerable, disabled are struggling. Funny, I often think Putin could walk in now waving a straw sword and we would all fall.. talk about disempowering folks by weakening and dismantling communities up and down the land.

What is the point of government if you're not going to empower people to fend for themselves, educate and train them, provide services so the country runs smoothly and people/families flourish.. instead we're hobbling along and paying through the nose for it.

Socialise the losses and privatise the profits.. and greedily so.
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  #231  
Old 06.04.2018, 11:33
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Herein lies the problem.

The other lot are so bad that, by definition, Corbyn must be good. And if he appears to have blemishes or be missing the plot entirely, lets either deny that or find excuses rather than do something.

Labour supporters urgently need to come out of this mode. As long as they keep on finding excuses, things won't change.

Otherwise we reach the point that we say, antisemistm is Ok as long as you promise to spend money on hospitals.
I completely agree, we should not sweep things under the rug for the sake of political expediency. However I also think that conflation of issues, smear campaigns, Kompromat and mass hysteria designed to muddy the waters and drown out criticism of the government cannot go on either. Its impossible to have a reasonable debate in the current polarised climate.

The fact is Jeremy Corbyn has largely stepped away from many of his so-called trendy causes (a good thing IMO) to focus on social and domestic issues which is what people really care about. And for all the talk of cloud cuckoo economics and money trees, it is surprising just how much support Labour's economic policies have from prominent economists, institutions and think tanks.
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  #232  
Old 06.04.2018, 11:39
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Herein lies the problem.

The other lot are so bad that, by definition, Corbyn must be good. And if he appears to have blemishes or be missing the plot entirely, lets either deny that or find excuses rather than do something.

Labour supporters urgently need to come out of this mode. As long as they keep on finding excuses, things won't change.

Otherwise we reach the point that we say, antisemistm is Ok as long as you promise to spend money on hospitals.
Oh come on... The man is clearly under attack by the right wing media. His antisemitism was portrayed as worse because he spent Passover with the wrong kind of Jewish community. In fact, he's considered so antisemitic by the media, anybody he meets is portrayed as antisemitic even if they are synagogue attending Jews.

He could convert to Hasidim and build a house on the West Bank and they will still call him antisemitic.

Meanwhile, Sure Start centres are closing left and right, the NHS is is crisis, Police numbers are still being reduced during a spate of pretty intense violent attacks (not to mention high terrorist threats).

I'm not saying he's not been blind to antisemitism in the party in the past, or even that he has not been antisemitic, but he has been branded now and is dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't. He ignores critics and is accused of refusing to see the problem, he counters critics and is accused of 'protesting too much'. The main Jewish councils refuse to meet him with no pre-conditions so he is ignoring Jewish communities, he spends Passover with a Jewish community, but as they are not Zionists he is further stigmatised.

And can we PLEASE keep the distinction between Anti-Zionist and Antisemitic? Even Jews can be anti-Zionist (as we learned this week), it does no good to conflate the two. Just because most Zionists are Jews it does not mean that attacking the former means you hate the latter

I am anti rapey priests, but not anti-Catholic
I am anti Saudi oppression, but not anti-Muslim
I am anti KKK, but not anti-white or anti-Christian

I (and Corbyn) can find the oppression of Palestinians horrific without it meaning anything to do with antisemitism. And so can Jews if they want.
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  #233  
Old 06.04.2018, 11:48
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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I completely agree, we should not sweep things under the rug for the sake of political expediency. However I also think that conflation of issues, smear campaigns, Kompromat and mass hysteria designed to muddy the waters and drown out criticism of the government cannot go on either. Its impossible to have a reasonable debate in the current polarised climate.
I agree that the smear campaigns are wrong. The press is taking the easy road by jumping on issues and amplifying people's fears rather than seeking to analyze and explain issues. Both sides of the political sepctrum are responsible for doing this.

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The fact is Jeremy Corbyn has largely stepped away from many of his so-called trendy causes (a good thing IMO) to focus on social and domestic issues which is what people really care about. And for all the talk of cloud cuckoo economics and money trees, it is surprising just how much support Labour's economic policies have from prominent economists, institutions and think tanks.
I have several times in the past stated on this forum that although i don't agree with his policies, I admire Corbyn for his honesty and for staying the course. I'm certainly not part of the lynch mob who wants to drag him through the mud for the sake of it. Wherther or not his ideas make sense or whether he just wants to replace one dysfunctzional mess by another is maybe a matter for a different debate. But let's just assume, for the sake of the particular argument, that his ideas in these areas are largely right and would work.

Isn't that all the more a good reason to confront him on the things he has got wrong, to try to make him aware that he needs to get tougher on things such as antisemitic tendencies and messages coming from within his own party and sometimes, whether through intent or lack of awareness, echoed in his own words?

If such criticism came from people who are otherwise sympathetic to him, it wouldn't come across as an attack on his leadership or personaility, but it would be an opportunity for him to improve his weak points.
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  #234  
Old 06.04.2018, 12:30
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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what they are tired of is the continuing fall out from cutbacks. Council tax has recently been increased and services see cuts again as local councils fail to find the funds to keep communities, schools, hospitals, basic services afloat. People have bigger worries..
People finding out that free stuff isn’t free shocker.
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  #235  
Old 06.04.2018, 12:33
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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At every turn, the mess the country is in is being deflected and side-stepped as not important because Corbyn's screw ups are the real issue threatening every man woman and child in the land. FFS! We all see it for what it is. Parents, students, kids, old folks, sick, mentally vulnerable, disabled are struggling. Funny, I often think Putin could walk in now waving a straw sword and we would all fall.. talk about disempowering folks by weakening and dismantling communities up and down the land.
Those issues are his forte and he resolutely sticks to those in the main, particularly in a recent PMQs where May gave him an open goal on Brexit negotiations and he responded with a question about funding cutbacks in Northamptonshire County Council. And that is my point...

I could rehash the damage he did to the Labour Party under Kinnock (1988), which was the beginning of my disdain for the man, but still today, I see him as utterly unsuited to being leader of the opposition and if he did get the top job, utterly unsuited to dealing with anything over and above domestic social issues, such as International trade, defence, etc...

Right now, the UK needs a far more rounded, capable and uniting PM and Corbyn doesn't have it in him.

And just for the record, those of us who've had one eye on the man for 30yrs know full well that the 'smear campaigns' are based upon fact, not just right wing press slander. That's what makes denial of his follies so difficult to stomach.
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  #236  
Old 06.04.2018, 13:08
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

[QUOTE=MsWorWoo;2931294
I (and Corbyn) can find the oppression of Palestinians horrific without it meaning anything to do with antisemitism. And so can Jews if they want.[/QUOTE]

Almost none of the antisemitic incidents in Labour had anything to do with Israel or palestinians. This excuse is very thin.

Corbyn has no problem when Palestinians or other Arabs are oppressing Palestinians or murder Israeli civilians. His rage is reserved for Israel.
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  #237  
Old 06.04.2018, 13:12
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Ah, but no.. he has always been consistent in his approach to basic level services so in that alone has power over the Tories. No one is really being pulled into the antisemitism furore, but, that said, the Labour party are wholly responsible now to get rid of the bigotry if they are to move forward.

At every turn, the mess the country is in is being deflected and side-stepped as not important because Corbyn's screw ups are the real issue threatening every man woman and child in the land. FFS! We all see it for what it is. Parents, students, kids, old folks, sick, mentally vulnerable, disabled are struggling. Funny, I often think Putin could walk in now waving a straw sword and we would all fall.. talk about disempowering folks by weakening and dismantling communities up and down the land.

What is the point of government if you're not going to empower people to fend for themselves, educate and train them, provide services so the country runs smoothly and people/families flourish.. instead we're hobbling along and paying through the nose for it.

Socialise the losses and privatise the profits.. and greedily so
.
Sadly, these tactics and this situation is way too common for all Europe....with a few notable exceptions of course, Switzerland being one of them. Lucky us, here.
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  #238  
Old 06.04.2018, 13:38
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

Let's assume that the following would have happened:

1. Party leader found out to be a member of child porn groups. his reponse: I didn't know I was a member, deletes account.
2. Several other party members were in similar groups.
3. Officials in the party support labour candidates who posted child porn. action taken only after public outcry.
4. Party leader supports child porn mural, then retracts. reason: he didn't notice it was porn until it was pointed out to him. several times.
5. Party leader has a history of supporting pornographers.
6-999: fresh examples weekly, sometimes daily

would the party leader keep his position ?
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  #239  
Old 06.04.2018, 17:50
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

It seems to me, that Jezza has the next election in the bag.
The tories will be smarting over Brexit, and they have no viable leader.
The country will be in a state of flux.

Unless something derails JC, he will get in on
1) the 'youth' vote
2) the renting population who cannot afford a house of their own
3) as he really is left wing, and not Nu Labour
4) the disruption factor vote ( people are sick of the same politics being played out by every govt. in the last 25 years)
5) Austerity
6) Re-nationalisation

Expect the unexpected. Trump, brexit, trade wars, GFC, etc.
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  #240  
Old 06.04.2018, 18:05
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Herein lies the problem.

The other lot are so bad that, by definition, Corbyn must be good. And if he appears to have blemishes or be missing the plot entirely, lets either deny that or find excuses rather than do something.

Labour supporters urgently need to come out of this mode. As long as they keep on finding excuses, things won't change.

Otherwise we reach the point that we say, antisemistm is Ok as long as you promise to spend money on hospitals.
OK, he's a controversial character... I love this word. Who's a better fit to replace him? (if the party wants that) There must be someone less controversial and slightly more dangerous than him, somewhere in the shadow...
Sorry for asking but I am almost ignorant re. UK politics. I know lovely Farage though. Oh, and prince Charles! Equally....lovely.
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