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09.04.2018, 11:54
| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
Corbyn is loyal to his friends - He asked Hamas to read out his message of support in their demonstration, yet is not so sure who gassed civilians in Syria.
He is also the first UK party leader since Mosley which the Jewsih community demonstrated against. Interestigly both were Labour MPs at one time and both wanted to negotiate peace with vile regimes.
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09.04.2018, 11:58
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | Corbyn is loyal to his friends - He asked Hamas to read out his message of support in their demonstration, yet is not so sure who gassed civilians in Syria.
He is also the first UK party leader since Mosley which the Jewsih community demonstrated against. Interestigly both were Labour MPs at one time and both wanted to negotiate peace with vile regimes. | | | | | but to be fair, Labour today is a totally different beast than Labour was back then.
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09.04.2018, 13:30
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | OK, he's a controversial character... I love this word. Who's a better fit to replace him? (if the party wants that) There must be someone less controversial and slightly more dangerous than him, somewhere in the shadow...
Sorry for asking but I am almost ignorant re. UK politics. I know lovely Farage though. Oh, and prince Charles! Equally....lovely. | | | | | Now Prince Charles and Farage jointly leading Labour.
That'd be good news for the popcorm industry.
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09.04.2018, 14:11
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah Howard Jacobson: ‘Jews know what antisemitism is and what it isn’t. To invent it would be a sacrilege’ "But the atmosphere of which I speak is of a sort to which no group should be subjected. It manifests itself in habitual abuse on social media, the drowning out of any speech considered dissonant in universities, local councils and debating chambers, that cold-eyed contempt of which Jeremy Corbyn is master, and the undisguised assumption, within leftist politics, that when a Jew complains of antisemitism, he is lying. Most Jews know what antisemitism is and what it isn’t. Its history is written on the Jewish character in blood. To invent it where it is not would be a sacrilege.
The incantatory repetition of the charge that Jews cry antisemitism only in order to subvert criticism of Israel or discredit Corbyn is more than fatuous and lazy, and it is more than painful to those many Jews who own an old allegiance to the Labour party and who are not strangers to criticising Israel. It is the deepest imaginable insult. I cannot speak for all Jews, but a profound depression has taken hold of those I know. For myself, I feel I am back in that lightless swamp of medieval ignorance where the Jew who is the author of all humanity’s ills lies, cheats, cringes and dissembles. And this time there is no horse to punch." | The following 3 users would like to thank Reb77Br for this useful post: | | 
10.04.2018, 03:53
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
There really is a toxic air in the UK at present surrounding these kinds of discussions. It has become pretty impossible, as far as I can see, to be in the Labour camp and criticize Israeli actions in Palestine without being accused of antisemitism. Corbyn can't win (and I'm not a Corbyn fan). All the Tory-supporting media aren't bothered with subtleties and they're bloody-mindedly determined to find an antisemitic thought in each of his utterances on Palestine. His supporters, meanwhile, want him to be much more energetic in his support of Palestinian independence, which doesn't necessarily mean support for Hamas. Personally, I don't think there's the slightest hint of antisemitism in my own view that the state of Israel's stance towards Palestine, and its actions, are very, very hard to defend.
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10.04.2018, 07:38
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | There really is a toxic air in the UK at present surrounding these kinds of discussions. It has become pretty impossible, as far as I can see, to be in the Labour camp and criticize Israeli actions in Palestine without being accused of antisemitism. Corbyn can't win (and I'm not a Corbyn fan). All the Tory-supporting media aren't bothered with subtleties and they're bloody-mindedly determined to find an antisemitic thought in each of his utterances on Palestine. His supporters, meanwhile, want him to be much more energetic in his support of Palestinian independence, which doesn't necessarily mean support for Hamas. Personally, I don't think there's the slightest hint of antisemitism in my own view that the state of Israel's stance towards Palestine, and its actions, are very, very hard to defend. | | | | | To be fair it's been building for a few years now. Criticism of Israel is widely pounced upon by its supporters as being antisemitic regardless of if that is true, and even jews who oppose what Israel does are considered 'self hating' and traitorous. Its a real shame that the country which was supposed to rescue millions from persecution and offer them liberty has become a place which persecutes millions and takes their liberty away.
On a day to day basis, Israel makes life paradoxically harder for the diaspora because its actions are assumed to represent global jewry.
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10.04.2018, 07:43
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | Now Prince Charles and Farage jointly leading Labour.
That'd be good news for the popcorm industry. | | | | | I didn't say they're going to lead the Labour party...are you constantly hungry for a logical falacy?  I said they are the only British politicians or public figures I know (although theoretically Charles is not a politician but he represents UK with certain occasions), not the only Labour politicians.
Keep up.
So what's in amogles' vision the best Labour politician eager to replace Corbyn? If you didn't understand the question, I'm gonna deconstruct it for you - did you identify some secret plot there? I'm curious to hear your suppositions. | Quote: | |  | | | Corbyn is loyal to his friends - He asked Hamas to read out his message of support in their demonstration, yet is not so sure who gassed civilians in Syria.
He is also the first UK party leader since Mosley which the Jewsih community demonstrated against. Interestigly both were Labour MPs at one time and both wanted to negotiate peace with vile regimes. | | | | | This is politics, maybe they do whatever suits the UK best. I wish politicians could always have principles but maybe sometimes they only do whatever is best for their own countries...my 2 cents
Last edited by greenmount; 10.04.2018 at 08:26.
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10.04.2018, 07:53
| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | To be fair it's been building for a few years now. Criticism of Israel is widely pounced upon by its supporters as being antisemitic regardless of if that is true, and even jews who oppose what Israel does are considered 'self hating' and traitorous. Its a real shame that the country which was supposed to rescue millions from persecution and offer them liberty has become a place which persecutes millions and takes their liberty away.
On a day to day basis, Israel makes life paradoxically harder for the diaspora because its actions are assumed to represent global jewry. | | | | | Just wait until you find out what how liberty works in the rest of the Middle East | 
10.04.2018, 07:55
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | Just wait until you find out what how liberty works in the rest of the Middle East  | | | | |
So israel should be compared with the rest of the horrific, human rights abusing nations? Would it be in sound company, then?
Is that what it aspires to? Being slightly better then the worst?
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10.04.2018, 08:05
| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | So israel should be compared with the rest of the horrific, human rights abusing nations? Would it be in sound company, then?
Is that what it aspires to? Being slightly better then the worst? | | | | | Yes, if we're going to be fair, it should. I don't particularly like the land grabs by Israel either, but you have to put it into perspective. It's a tiny country the size of Wales surrounded by enemies that want to see it wiped off the face of the earth. It's the only democracy in the region where Arab citizens have the vote.
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10.04.2018, 08:38
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | So israel should be compared with the rest of the horrific, human rights abusing nations? Would it be in sound company, then?
Is that what it aspires to? Being slightly better then the worst? | | | | | Hmm..how's called holding other people to higher standards?
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10.04.2018, 08:40
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | Yes, if we're going to be fair, it should. I don't particularly like the land grabs by Israel either, but you have to put it into perspective. It's a tiny country the size of Wales surrounded by enemies that want to see it wiped off the face of the earth. It's the only democracy in the region where Arab citizens have the vote. | | | | |
If a foreign power plopped a new country in the middle of europe, against the wishes of the rest of europe, and then gave it billions in military aid and nuclear weapons, most of europe would be hostile to it too.
its difficult to take the 'sorrounded by eemies' as an excuse for shooting unarmed protesters.
As far as this 'only democracy in the middle east' waffle goes, you're right...if you're the right kind of israeli:
"This claim has always been disingenuous, ahistorical, and tinged with racism. Israel can claim to be a democracy only in the sense that apartheid South Africa could also claim to be so: an “ethnocracy” with full democratic rights for the privileged race or religion; lesser or no democratic rights for those with undesirable skin color, ethnicity, nationality, or race.
Israel became a preponderantly Jewish state, thereby gaining this veneer of democracy, only by ethnically cleansing indigenous Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and preventing to this day these refugees and their descendants from exercising their right of return to their homes as guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Palestinians who remained on their land and became citizens of Israel lived under martial law until 1966 and did not achieve even nominal equal rights until then. While enjoying the right to vote and run for office, Palestinian citizens of Israel—who comprise about 20 percent of the population—continue to face a bevy of official discriminatory laws and widespread societal racism that makes them second-class citizens analogous to African Americans in the Jim Crow South."
The above is an excerpt from a report from the Berggruen institute, a US-based non-partisan think-tank, which was re-reported by The World Post. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-..._b_833379.html
Its also not true to say its the only democracy in the region. Lebanon has, since the Taif Agreement in 1989 had a sectarian but democratic government, which reflets the makeup of its people.
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10.04.2018, 08:41
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | Hmm..how's called holding other people to higher standards? | | | | |
I dont hold it to higher standards. I hold it to european standards, as do most europeans.
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10.04.2018, 09:04
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | I dont hold it to higher standards. I hold it to european standards, as do most europeans. | | | | | Then hold all the other countries in the region to the same european standards as most europeans would do. We don't like to discriminate.
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10.04.2018, 09:10
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | Them hold the other countries in the region to the same european standards as most europeans would do. We don't like to discriminate. | | | | | I do.
Most of the countries in that part of the world, Israel included, are as bad as each other.
Oman is the only one that i can abide, to be honest, and even then it has problems. The main reason i can abide them is that i like their neutrality policy.
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10.04.2018, 09:18
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
I find these 10 classic diversionary tactics (used in gender arguments but applicable elsewhere) a useful read. | Quote: |  | | | Diversion 1: The Faux Concern Troll
'Concern trolls' are well known online, but they exist offline as well. The faux concern is the same, regardless of the medium of communication. Any response that begins with 'Perhaps you should spend less time on X and more time on Y' should set off an alert that Diversion 1, AKA the Faux Concern Troll, may have been triggered.
For example, 'Maybe you should spend less time worrying about refugees and more time worrying about poor people born in your own country.' The key here is that they do not address your points, they immediately divert to another topic. Often the person using this kind of diversion doesn't really give the other issue they claim is more important any credit either, they just don't want to listen to what you have to say, and they want to belittle your points or concerns. (Obvious exceptions might include parents, loved ones, bosses, teachers and academic supervisors, who, rightly or wrongly, might have some credible or well-meaning advice about where you should be directing your energies.) Diversion 2: The One Who Demeans
Rather than focusing on your argument, and acknowledging or criticising the relevant points, this person will intentionally use demeaning language to gently and patronisingly suggest you are cute but dumb, nice but uneducated and so on. Attempting to demean a person instead of criticising their argument is widely recognised as poor form, bad practice and very weak. Diversion 2 often feels insulting, or like a patronising pat on the head. It resembles Diversion 3, below, but is generally subtler and less crude. Diversion 3: 'But Look at You'
This diversion often occurs when you are speaking out about a difficult or personal issue that has affected you and others. This critic diverts the discussion by attempting to aggressively shame you, suggesting you self-evidently deserved whatever happened to you.
Let's say you speak about your experience of discrimination, sexual assault or bullying. The Diversion 3 response might sound something like: 'No wonder. Just look at you, you ugly/fat/skinny cow/slut/etc.' Your critic doesn't like you speaking up, so they try to belittle your appearance, size, weight, alleged sexual history and so on. Diversion 4: 'But What About the Middle East?'
Say you present information on violent attacks against LGBTIQ people in your community. One diversionary response is: 'You think gays have it bad here? What about in the Middle East?' This tactic is frequently used to divert discussions about various freedoms, or social or safety issues impacting women, children, LGBTIQ people, sex workers, people with a disability, racial minorities and so on.
The basic argument is that nothing needs to be done at home because things are worse elsewhere. People are being bashed? Well they are being murdered somewhere else. Women are raped and murdered here? It's worse somewhere else. It aims to shut down an uncomfortable topic by pointing the finger elsewhere, to another country or culture, or even to a former time when things were harder. This does nothing to solve the issue at hand, and serves only to push away any sense of there being a real and immediate problem.
Don't be diverted. Problems at home, and in the here and now, matter too. Diversion 5: Textbook Diversion, or 'What About Men?'
This is a textbook first-reply diversion (along the lines of Diversion 4), in which the responder attempts to change the subject immediately. For example, let's say you talk about reports of high rates of domestic abuse against a particular demographic: women. The diversionary response is: 'What about men?' It's not that this question should not be raised – it should. Rather, this question demands immediate discussion of a different topic, which is what makes it a textbook diversion.
This tactic is frequently used to divert discussions of gendered patterns in violence, as many feminists and advocates are well aware. The fact that anyone with an intimate partner can be the victim of domestic violence does not mean that the strikingly gendered patterns of domestic violence should be ignored. In fact, without analysing the existing patterns, we can't put in place a response, let alone solutions. Diversion 6: 'DO Something About It'
You publish a post on social media about a particular issue – let's say about reports on how underage refugees are locked in detention centres, causing concern to major welfare bodies and the United Nations, or how appalling it is that a particular species is dying out due to climate change. The diversionary response is: 'If you care so much, DO something about it; otherwise shut up.'
It does not logically follow that social media posts are useless. Raising awareness is the essence of any statement or report by whistleblowers or war correspondents. We wouldn't respond to these worthy reports by saying 'Do something about it'. Further, posting on social media does not preclude the possibility of taking other action. Diversion 7: 'If You Can't Do Everything, Do Nothing'
Let's say you are raising money for a charity appeal that helps get basic toiletry supplies to people experiencing homelessness. The diversionary response is: 'If you really cared about homelessness you would be opening your home to them.' This argument boils down to: 'If you can't do everything, you can't do anything, therefore no one should do anything.'
My guess is this critic is doing just that: precisely nothing. Do your thing. No one can champion all causes, or do everything at once for every person. Anyone can try to divert you by pointing to a more extreme example, but it takes real heart to do anything at all. Diversion 8: 'I Challenge You to Explain Everything'
Let's say you point out the well-documented gender pay gap. The usual diversionary response is: 'There are laws against unequal pay. I challenge you to provide one example of an instance where a man has been paid more than a woman for the same job.'
The reason why this is a diversion is that the gender pay gap is something that has been exhaustively documented for decades. It's like reporting that a building has collapsed, and instead of being able to focus on those who have been disadvantaged by this disaster, or how it happened and might be prevented in future, you are being challenged to prove gravity exists. Further, just because something is outlawed does not mean it doesn't happen. It is against the law to murder people and yet people get murdered every week.
If your critic 'challenges' you to explain something that is already well known, it is most likely a diversion. (My usual response to Diversion 8 is to have the names of a few credible, impartial organisations up my sleeve (the Australian Bureau of Statistics, World Health Organisation, Human Rights Commission, etc) and to ask the person to go ahead and research it for themselves. Many issues, like the pay gap, are complex and require time to research properly. There are a lot of factors involved. It's not your job to do that work for them.) Diversion 9: 'Who Do You Think You Are?'/'Shame On You!'/'How Dare You!'
Like many classic diversions, this one is intended to completely shut down debate. Let's say you have some concerns about a law or public policy. The diversionary response might be something like: 'You think you know better than the government?' or 'Laws are laws for a reason.' The person has not addressed your points, whatever those are. Basically they are saying: 'How dare you question the omnipotent and perfect functioning of our impartial and flawless parliamentary or judicial systems!' Well, look, if such systems were perfect and impartial, slavery would not have been legal and it wouldn't have taken the Civil War to change that in the US.
This kind of response might also trigger accusations of 'Shame on you' for bringing up a particular subject. It's a whole lot of 'Who do you think you are?', because apparently having opinions is for other people, not you. Democracy involves public debate. As long as it is done respectfully, debate is a very good and very important thing. We need people to question the status quo. Without them, we'd probably still be stoning adulterers and keeping slaves. Diversion 10: The Old Switcheroo
This is an aggressive style of diversion that often aims to both silence and insult. Whatever point you have brought up regarding a particular problem, this person will suggest or strongly claim that you are an example of precisely that problem, but the thing you pointed out is not. Mention an instance of sexism and this person will instantly accuse you of being sexist. Raise the issue of racism, and they will call you racist. Highlight some example of bullying and you are 'the real bully'. Express concern about low wages for the working majority and you are accused of waging 'class warfare'. Black is white, up is down, and nowhere does this actually make sense.
Plainly, the act of pointing out, advocating against or keeping data on gender-based discrimination is not sexist, and focusing on an issue regarding race or racism is not racist. Responding with a claim that it is not only suggests a lack of logic and a deep misunderstanding of the issues, but also reveals a desire to shut down any conversation about those issues.
This is one of the oldest, laziest styles of 'debate' going, an unnecessary form of name-calling that sadly has been used to some effect in public spin campaigns to distract or neutralise legitimate debate about issues. Speaking Out – a 21st-Century Handbook for Women and Girls. | | | | | | The following 5 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post: | | 
10.04.2018, 10:33
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | I find these 10 classic diversionary tactics (used in gender arguments but applicable elsewhere) a useful read. | | | | | Indeed, very applicable on EF. Thanks, Castro. We can add - accusing other people of what we're actually doing, this is an EF specialty.
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10.04.2018, 11:05
| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | 
10.04.2018, 11:20
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | I didn't say they're going to lead the Labour party...are you constantly hungry for a logical falacy? I said they are the only British politicians or public figures I know (although theoretically Charles is not a politician but he represents UK with certain occasions), not the only Labour politicians.
Keep up. | | | | | hey, wassup with you today? Touchy or what? | Quote: | |  | | | So what's in amogles' vision the best Labour politician eager to replace Corbyn? If you didn't understand the question, I'm gonna deconstruct it for you - did you identify some secret plot there? I'm curious to hear your suppositions. | | | | | Look, there are many many more people out there who can do the job than we generally appreciate. Even if one in 10,000 has the poptential to make a good leader, or one in 100,000 even, with half a million members you can still have a broad and fair contest and may the best man or woman (or representative of any other gender or none) win.
Of course part of cultivating that is having the ability to spot leaders and to coach and mentor them.
But yet, apparently ,Corbyn is the only guy who can lead labour. They say.
In the USA, the Democrats could only find two candidates, one of them, by sheer coincidence, happened to be the wife of an ex president. The other was just a placeholder so they could pretend to have had a fair contest. The Republicans managed to find about 20 idiots who all spoke in pre-scripted soundbytes and none of whom looked even mildly like a potential president.
Do you see the gap? People at the top. Beople behind closed doors helping their friends. And then wondering why they are led by cr#ppy leaders.
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10.04.2018, 11:22
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| | Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah | Quote: | |  | | | | | | | |
hardly an endorsement of the man. More just an agreement that a particular course of action is best.
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