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Tom1234 02.05.2016 11:55

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2582472)
I would frequently see him get on the tube at Kilburn, interacting warmly with fellow passengers of all races and religions. .

That's strange because when a person tries to interact with everyone else on public transport, they usually get ignored or someone calls the transport police to get them taken away.

NotAllThere 02.05.2016 12:17

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2582472)
A deeply unpleasant man who won two terms as London Mayor?...

Considering Boris Johnson has managed it, I'd say being a deeply unpleasant person must be a vital qualification!

I think you're confusing personal qualities with political ones. Both BJ and KL are consummate politicians (though I think KL is losing it a bit now - what was he thinking when he said those things?). Their personal qualities (and indeed their abilities to run London) have little bearing on whether they're nasty, vicious sh*ts.

MsWorWoo 02.05.2016 12:50

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 2582467)
Perhaps you feel that way. And I can understand people's objection to Israel. But many are unable to distinguish the difference between the people and the country

I wonder is anyone critiquing Turkey is labeled anti-Islamic, or critiquing Italy is anti-Christian?
Yes, there is a problem with blurred lines between the religion and the country, but I do think that the country goes a long way towards keeping those lines blurred. It is often said that condemning Israel offensives against Hamas is anti-Semitic, but condemning Hamas attacks against Israel is not considered to be anti-Islamic. And, in my experience, saying both sides have valid points, although they both go about it the wrong way is often only seen as criticizing one side.
And that is the problem... any criticism about Israel must either
a) separate the religion and the state, but starting the start with the "I'm not anti-Semetic, but....' always means you ARE anti-Semetic. or
b) don't try to separate the state and the religion, then you are seen as combining the both in an umbrella.

Treverus 02.05.2016 13:19

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWorWoo (Post 2582500)
I wonder is anyone critiquing Turkey is labeled anti-Islamic, or critiquing Italy is anti-Christian?
Yes, there is a problem with blurred lines between the religion and the country, but I do think that the country goes a long way towards keeping those lines blurred. It is often said that condemning Israel offensives against Hamas is anti-Semitic, but condemning Hamas attacks against Israel is not considered to be anti-Islamic. And, in my experience, saying both sides have valid points, although they both go about it the wrong way is often only seen as criticizing one side.
And that is the problem... any criticism about Israel must either
a) separate the religion and the state, but starting the start with the "I'm not anti-Semetic, but....' always means you ARE anti-Semetic. or
b) don't try to separate the state and the religion, then you are seen as combining the both in an umbrella.


Exactly. The weirdest thing about the whole topic is that the most balanced discussions I had about the entire conflict was with moderate Israelis. For some reason seem most Americans and Europeans have picked a side and defend it not matter what... only thing that varies is the side they picked.

Fidgety 02.05.2016 13:26

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWorWoo (Post 2582500)
I wonder is anyone critiquing Turkey is labeled anti-Islamic, or critiquing Italy is anti-Christian?
Yes, there is a problem with blurred lines between the religion and the country, but I do think that the country goes a long way towards keeping those lines blurred. It is often said that condemning Israel offensives against Hamas is anti-Semitic, but condemning Hamas attacks against Israel is not considered to be anti-Islamic. And, in my experience, saying both sides have valid points, although they both go about it the wrong way is often only seen as criticizing one side.
And that is the problem... any criticism about Israel must either
a) separate the religion and the state, but starting the start with the "I'm not anti-Semetic, but....' always means you ARE anti-Semetic. or
b) don't try to separate the state and the religion, then you are seen as combining the both in an umbrella.


Firstly, there is no where near as many people critiquing other countries as they do Israel, in the UK as elsewhere in Europe solidarity movements boycott movements, standing outside Jewish owned shops and flying flags at council buildings and the like. All those people attending the events are happy when they are wearing their Chinese made keffiyahs, or getting their in their Saudi fueled car. No criticism of those states, or very little. Too many double standards at play.

That aside, Israel is always in the news, and on the left's political agenda. They wrap their anti-semitism up by using the term anti Zionism, then say all Israeli's should be deported to the US (Naz Shah) or that there is a Zionist led media, Zionist financing, Zionist Lobbies or conspiracies etc etc, same old stuff just a different label. Criticism of Israel fine, Israeli's do it themselves one hell of a lot, and that is healthy. However what is emerging from the left is something far more disturbing. At least you know where you stand with the far right, in that they hate everyone and say it as it is, but the left - wolves in sheeps clothing.

Guest 02.05.2016 13:28

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWorWoo (Post 2582500)
I wonder is anyone critiquing Turkey is labeled anti-Islamic, or critiquing Italy is anti-Christian?
Yes, there is a problem with blurred lines between the religion and the country, but I do think that the country goes a long way towards keeping those lines blurred. It is often said that condemning Israel offensives against Hamas is anti-Semitic, but condemning Hamas attacks against Israel is not considered to be anti-Islamic. And, in my experience, saying both sides have valid points, although they both go about it the wrong way is often only seen as criticizing one side.
And that is the problem... any criticism about Israel must either
a) separate the religion and the state, but starting the start with the "I'm not anti-Semetic, but....' always means you ARE anti-Semetic. or
b) don't try to separate the state and the religion, then you are seen as combining the both in an umbrella.

The problem is that Israel was founded on a religion and the basis that Jew's claim to be God's chosen people and that Israel is God's chosen land.

At the end though, no Jew can influence Israel in the same way that no individual Muslims have an influence on terrorism.

Treverus 02.05.2016 13:36

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidgety (Post 2582516)
Firstly, there is no where near as many people critiquing other countries as they do Israel.

Do you really think so or do you happen to simply have an interest in the topic and therefore read the matching news?

At this moment is Turkey the number one country discussed in Europe. Then comes Russia and third comes probably Greece. Then comes a bit of a void followed by whichever Eastern European populist said the most stupid thing this week. Usually Orban, but sometimes one of the others. The rest depends on the daily political topics, at the moment it would be Obama and TTIP. Israel is not even making the list.


When I was younger was Israel in the news pretty much daily. These days? Nobody in Europe cares half as much as during the times of Arafat and Rabin. Looks like most people unfortunately quietly accept the status quo.

amogles 02.05.2016 13:46

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2582456)
Real anti-semitism is ugly and obscene and is devalued by this political play by Israel and her allies.

No necessarily, and this is the problem.

A lot of anti-semites have learnt to wrap their hate in carefully chosen and reasonable words.

But then, just once in a while, the cover blows.

amogles 02.05.2016 13:49

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2582459)
Nope, anti-semitism is not engrained in the political left. Pacifism is .

This wouldn't be the same political left by any chance that not too long ago was sympathizing with Stalin and Mao, and in the case of Corbyn and friends has still failed to see the error of their earlier ways?

Fidgety 02.05.2016 13:49

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2582522)
Do you really think so or do you happen to simply have an interest in the topic and therefore read the matching news?

At this moment is Turkey the number one country discussed in Europe. Then comes Russia and third comes probably Greece. Then comes a bit of a void followed by whichever Eastern European populist said the most stupid thing this week. Usually Orban, but sometimes one of the others. The rest depends on the daily political topics, at the moment it would be Obama and TTIP. Israel is not even making the list.


When I was younger was Israel in the news pretty much daily. These days? Nobody in Europe cares half as much as during the times of Arafat and Rabin. Looks like most people unfortunately quietly accept the status quo.


I absolutely know it is critiqued more than any other country. The UN dedicates whole days to it, when totally ignoring mass slaughters in other countries. I've walked down the street in Brighton and seen protests out a Jewish owned shop, BDS protests, the same in Manchester. They do it at lot of the major supermarkets in the UK and in Europe. College and university campuses - Sussex Uni being one where they walk around chanting that "From the river to the sea" one of Hamas' favourite topics, about running Jews into the sea.

MsWorWoo 02.05.2016 14:01

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidgety (Post 2582516)
Firstly, there is no where near as many people critiquing other countries as they do Israel, in the UK as elsewhere in Europe solidarity movements boycott movements, standing outside Jewish owned shops and flying flags at council buildings and the like. All those people attending the events are happy when they are wearing their Chinese made keffiyahs, or getting their in their Saudi fueled car. No criticism of those states, or very little. Too many double standards at play.

That aside, Israel is always in the news, and on the left's political agenda. They wrap their anti-semitism up by using the term anti Zionism, then say all Israeli's should be deported to the US (Naz Shah) or that there is a Zionist led media, Zionist financing, Zionist Lobbies or conspiracies etc etc, same old stuff just a different label. Criticism of Israel fine, Israeli's do it themselves one hell of a lot, and that is healthy. However what is emerging from the left is something far more disturbing. At least you know where you stand with the far right, in that they hate everyone and say it as it is, but the left - wolves in sheeps clothing.

Really? I remember much of the 80's the same things happened about South Africa, people protesting against apartheid, boycotting, speaking up, even going as far as to have huge concerts, but no-one was complaining it was anti-white and anyone who said anything or did anything vaguely anti-SA was a racists, everyone acknowledged that it was just anti apartheid government. And yes, there were individuals how spoke out against SA who WERE anti-white, but everyone recognised that they were a minority and that most people were there because they were against the oppression of blacks and coloured and the unequal oppressive society.
Now that is a double standard.
as to the bold (by me) part of your statement, I think that you are talking about a very small minority of anti-zionists, and even then, not all anti-Zionists are anti-Israeli state, I think there are even Jewish people in Israel who feel that Zionism has gone too far (at least one that I know).... but I guess your statement has actually proven my point. As soon as anyone mentions anything vaguely critical of the Israeli state, they are lumped in with the neo-nazi's and other anti-Semites.

marton 02.05.2016 14:02

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidgety (Post 2582529)
I absolutely know it is critiqued more than any other country. The UN dedicates whole days to it, when totally ignoring mass slaughters in other countries. I've walked down the street in Brighton and seen protests out a Jewish owned shop, BDS protests, the same in Manchester. They do it at lot of the major supermarkets in the UK and in Europe. College and university campuses - Sussex Uni being one where they walk around chanting that "From the river to the sea" one of Hamas' favourite topics, about running Jews into the sea.

"totally ignoring mass slaughters in other countries."
Indeed, current example!
Yesterday was the 101st Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide, ca. 1.5 million people

Warning, graphic pictures here.

st2lemans 02.05.2016 14:07

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2582459)
Nope, anti-semitism is not engrained in the political left. Pacifism is

Ummm, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam all started under leftist US presidents. :rolleyes:

Pacifists? :msnsick:

Tom

marton 02.05.2016 14:08

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWorWoo (Post 2582539)
Really? I remember much of the 80's the same things happened about South Africa, people protesting against apartheid, boycotting, speaking up, even going as far as to have huge concerts, but no-one was complaining it was anti-white and anyone who said anything or did anything vaguely anti-SA was a racists, everyone acknowledged that it was just anti apartheid government. And yes, there were individuals how spoke out against SA who WERE anti-white, but everyone recognised that they were a minority and that most people were there because they were against the oppression of blacks and coloured and the unequal oppressive society.
Now that is a double standard.
as to the bold (by me) part of your statement, I think that you are talking about a very small minority of anti-zionists, and even then, not all anti-Zionists are anti-Israeli state, I think there are even Jewish people in Israel who feel that Zionism has gone too far (at least one that I know).... but I guess your statement has actually proven my point. As soon as anyone mentions anything vaguely critical of the Israeli state, they are lumped in with the neo-nazi's and other anti-Semites.

True; I was anti-apartheid!

Now when I look at SA I wonder if I supported the right thing. :eek:

Meddling in other countries affairs often has unfortunate results; just ask the US :D

What is the saying "be careful what you wish for"!
For example, when I look at the results of the "Arab Spring" it is hard to figure out what would be a "proven" solution for Palestine.

Fidgety 02.05.2016 14:11

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWorWoo (Post 2582539)
Really? I remember much of the 80's the same things happened about South Africa, people protesting against apartheid, boycotting, speaking up, even going as far as to have huge concerts, but no-one was complaining it was anti-white and anyone who said anything or did anything vaguely anti-SA was a racists, everyone acknowledged that it was just anti apartheid government. And yes, there were individuals how spoke out against SA who WERE anti-white, but everyone recognised that they were a minority and that most people were there because they were against the oppression of blacks and coloured and the unequal oppressive society.
Now that is a double standard.
as to the bold (by me) part of your statement, I think that you are talking about a very small minority of anti-zionists, and even then, not all anti-Zionists are anti-Israeli state, I think there are even Jewish people in Israel who feel that Zionism has gone too far (at least one that I know).... but I guess your statement has actually proven my point. As soon as anyone mentions anything vaguely critical of the Israeli state, they are lumped in with the neo-nazi's and other anti-Semites.

So calling for the obliteration of Jews on college campuses and calling for the deportation is that critical of Israel or is that just blatant anti-semitism? Which is what I was referring to.

Funny, I was sitting with Israeli arab friends in a restaurant in Haifa last year, didn't have separate seating areas, toilets or entrances.

Treverus 02.05.2016 14:12

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2582540)
"totally ignoring mass slaughters in other countries."
Indeed, current example!
Yesterday was the 101st Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide, ca. 1.5 million people

Warning, graphic pictures here.

a) that's a century ago. I think there are worse things going on right now that nobody talks about.


b) the Armenian topic makes the news very regularly, especially since Erdogan has so a short fuse... latest example: A cultural project in Dresden on the topic receives EU funds, Turkey files complaints about "propaganda", EU withdraws a slightly strong worded text from a website to edit it a bit, all newspapers go up in arms... simply cause it's Erdogan. I'd never hear about some culture project in Dresden otherwise, but Turkey really gets the stick WAY more than Israel right now. Rightfully so, but still: Israel really isn't the top news item it once was anymore in Europe. Might be different in the UK from what I hear on this thread... Here is some source to the case I mentioned: http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/polit...batte-23942594

Treverus 02.05.2016 14:20

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2582544)
True; I was anti-apartheid!

Now when I look at SA I wonder if I supported the right thing. :eek:

Meddling in other countries affairs often has unfortunate results; just ask the US :D

What is the saying "be careful what you wish for"!
For example, when I look at the results of the "Arab Spring" it is hard to figure out what would be a "proven" solution for Palestine.



1) if the majority of South Africans decide to vote for some crazy corrupt idiot is this entirely their choice. That doesn't mean that your view on an equally corrupt fascist state torturing people was in any way wrong.


2) The US is hardly meddling in other countries for a greater good, but usually have a pretty strong self interest... which often goes badly wrong.


3) The problem with Palestine is that you have by now some 35 years of radicalization. Pretty impossible to now turn a switch and say "hey, you are free now, please forget the past and don't throw bombs anymore. Let's have a secular state and free elections instead"... life won't be that easy. It probably would take a decade or so of a strong handed but benevolent dictator to stabilize and organize a proper Palestinian state. As long as neither Israel nor ANY of the Arab fractions has any interest in a strong and stable Palestine is this never ever going to happen. Most of the current powers prefer instability and suffering of the civil population as it helps them with their political agenda in one way or another.

MsWorWoo 02.05.2016 14:37

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidgety (Post 2582548)
So calling for the obliteration of Jews on college campuses and calling for the deportation is that critical of Israel or is that just blatant anti-semitism? Which is what I was referring to.

Funny, I was sitting with Israeli arab friends in a restaurant in Haifa last year, didn't have separate seating areas, toilets or entrances.

Again... proving my point. You can not separate the boycott of Israeli herbs grown in the occupied territories with wanting the obliteration of Jews.
Yes, there are anti-Semites in the left, but that does not mean the left is anti-Semitic. There are anti-Semites, racists, and xenophobics in all parts of the political spectrum, we are all, therefore, horrible humans. Or you could judge all individuals by their words and actions, and all groups by the majority of their members and by their manifestos etc....
The (previous) anti-Semite was expelled from the Labour party straight-away, and so the right wing could not accuse Labour of being an anti-Semitic party, and so they latched on to someone who thinks that Israel is not perfect and implied he was anti-Semetic, and then you extend this to everyone who thinks anything bad about bombing of civilians in Palestine automatically wants to drown all the Jews in Israel.
Not everything is black and white (even under Apartheid), there are shades and subtleties everywhere.
I personally think that Israel should have been established earlier, and that the UK held off too long, causing a lot of deaths due to the terrorist actions in the 40's. That doesn't mean that I approve of Etzel's actions or am anti-British. I also believe that the occupied territories should be de-occupied, doesn't mean I approve of Hamas's actions or an anti-Israeli.

Batcow 02.05.2016 14:44

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Regarding the threadís headline, it refers to Jeremy Corbynís response to a challenge from the Israeli government spokesman Marc Regev.

Mr Corbyn's spokesman issued a statement which read: "Jeremy Corbyn has been a longstanding supporter of Palestinian rights and the pursuit of peace and justice in the Middle East through dialogue and negotiation.
"He has met many people with whom he profoundly disagrees in order to promote peace and reconciliation processes, including in South Africa, Latin American, Ireland and the Middle East.
"He believes it is essential to speak to people with whom there is disagreement, particularly when they have large-scale support or democratic mandates.
"Simply talking to people who agree with you wonít help achieve justice or peace."

marton 02.05.2016 14:49

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2582554)
1) if the majority of South Africans decide to vote for some crazy corrupt idiot is this entirely their choice. That doesn't mean that your view on an equally corrupt fascist state torturing people was in any way wrong.


2) The US is hardly meddling in other countries for a greater good, but usually have a pretty strong self interest... which often goes badly wrong.


3) The problem with Palestine is that you have by now some 35 years of radicalization. Pretty impossible to now turn a switch and say "hey, you are free now, please forget the past and don't throw bombs anymore. Let's have a secular state and free elections instead"... life won't be that easy. It probably would take a decade or so of a strong handed but benevolent dictator to stabilize and organize a proper Palestinian state. As long as neither Israel nor ANY of the Arab fractions has any interest in a strong and stable Palestine is this never ever going to happen. Most of the current powers prefer instability and suffering of the civil population as it helps them with their political agenda in one way or another.

"your view on an equally corrupt fascist state torturing people was in any way wrong." Not that my view was wrong but did I help the people or just push them into another sort of hell?

"you have by now some 35 years of radicalization" ca. 70 years? As you write; after so long there will be no chance of simply switching to a peaceful life. Anyway there will be different factions with different targets using violence :eek:


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