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  #41  
Old 02.05.2016, 15:52
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Regarding the thread’s headline, it refers to Jeremy Corbyn’s response to a challenge from the Israeli government spokesman Marc Regev.

Mr Corbyn's spokesman issued a statement which read: "Jeremy Corbyn has been a longstanding supporter of Palestinian rights and the pursuit of peace and justice in the Middle East through dialogue and negotiation.
"He has met many people with whom he profoundly disagrees in order to promote peace and reconciliation processes, including in South Africa, Latin American, Ireland and the Middle East.
"He believes it is essential to speak to people with whom there is disagreement, particularly when they have large-scale support or democratic mandates.
"Simply talking to people who agree with you won’t help achieve justice or peace."
That is all fine; but why does he claim terrorists as "friends"?

Lots of politicians speak and negotiate with people they disagree with but they do not label them as friends! At best I would label them as partners (in the cooperative sense not the loving pair!)?
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  #42  
Old 02.05.2016, 16:01
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Considering Boris Johnson has managed it, I'd say being a deeply unpleasant person must be a vital qualification!
The question is, was he considered unpleasant for being anti-Jewish? My father hates the man, absolutely despises him, but mainly because of the congestion charge he introduced as London mayor. My point is, if a grievous accusation is going to be made against someone, no matter how loathsome they may be, they should have a right to a fair hearing.

That wasn't the case here, Livingstone has been tried by the kangaroo court of the media with no end of MPs lining up to stick the knife in, literally minutes after the story blew up. It took me a couple of days to read up the facts for myself and decide on balance that although it was a stupid and clumsy statement to make, it was certainly not anti-semitic.
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Old 02.05.2016, 16:06
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Livingstone has been tried by the kangaroo court of the media with no end of MPs lining up to stick the knife in, literally minutes after the story blew up. It took me a couple of days to read up the facts for myself and decide on balance that although it was a stupid and clumsy statement to make, it was certainly not anti-semitic.
Indeed, and I think that the knee-jerk reaction is what was wanted, and what was achieved. The last thing you want is for the public to read and consider the facts.... spread some smoke around and call it a fire. I'm sure the timing is pure coincidence that there are elections on Thursday.
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  #44  
Old 02.05.2016, 16:24
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

So to clarify: Labour is screwed because 2 of their members were misquoted as saying "Hitler was misunderstood and the Jews deserved it" and the Conservatives are screwed because their leader had an orgy at an abattoir and screwed a lamb as it was being killed.



Welcome to media spin. Newton was right - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Back in the day where politicians were bonking their assistants while being whipped by the speaker of the house no one really cared - politicians were after all, a bit peculiar.

Now, not are we all supposed to care whether the Labour MP for somewhere frightful up North had Kelloggs Crunchy Nut Cornflakes for breakfast - we are suppose to proffer an opinion on what they should be eating, why they should be eating it, tweating it, instagramming a picture of ourselves eating what they should be eating and defriending anyone on Facebook who eats Badger Sushi.

I am beginning to wonder whether the next general election shouldn't just be both cabinets - well lets be honest the opinion of the National Jocks Party, the sandle munchers and the Afternoon tea and Crumpets Party really don't matter on the grand scale - dumped on a deserted Island in the south pacific and told to survive a for a month. Probably best shown after 9pm on Channel 5 due to the possibility of animal carcass heads being shown.
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Old 02.05.2016, 16:38
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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So to clarify: Labour is screwed because 2 of their members were misquoted as saying "Hitler was misunderstood and the Jews deserved it" .
That's a misquote. What they actually said didn't need misquoting to stir up a storm.

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Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.
Historically inaccurate/badly phrased/bloody stupid - you choose.

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I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing
Could be taken an implying that it's ok to hate the Jews in Israel, so long as it's only them. Anti-Semitic/Racist/bloody stupid- you choose

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"Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict - Relocate Israel into United States... problem solved".
Anti-Semitic/Racists/bloody stupid - you choose.

Politicians have to be very careful what they say. Neither have in this case. Sure Shah wasn't an MP at the time, but she was in politics.
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  #46  
Old 02.05.2016, 17:10
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Historically inaccurate/badly phrased/bloody stupid - you choose.

Politicians have to be very careful what they say.


Yes, but to be fair is that not the only or first politicians who gets his facts wrong about this one...

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Old 02.05.2016, 17:41
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Yes, but to be fair is that not the only or first politicians who gets his facts wrong about this one...
He also got his facts completely wrong about Iran in front of the UN General Assembly, with those facts being contradicted by Israel's own intelligence agency.

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Old 02.05.2016, 17:54
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

He generally has his best moments when he says nothing at all...


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Old 02.05.2016, 18:08
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

And a consensus is reached. All politicians are idiots. Except

But maybe he has better officials and listens to his briefing.
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Old 02.05.2016, 18:17
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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And a consensus is reached.


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Old 02.05.2016, 20:31
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

Three more councillors suspended today over comments made about Israel. Guido Fawkes is having a field day. You'd think these guys would get busy deleting their old social media posts.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-n...shire-36185694
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  #52  
Old 02.05.2016, 21:25
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Indeed, and I think that the knee-jerk reaction is what was wanted, and what was achieved. The last thing you want is for the public to read and consider the facts.... spread some smoke around and call it a fire. I'm sure the timing is pure coincidence that there are elections on Thursday.
That is completely disingenuous, not to mention an insult to people's intelligence. It's an old political trick to call any criticism a smear - the Scots Nats used it ad nauseum in 2014. It stops any proper discussion in its tracks.

Sometimes things are just as they appear. Ken is an anti-semite of old - it's just that he's more open about it these days. Increasing age can make people far less circumspect in their opinions.

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread have been utterly depressing and dispiriting - plus ca change.
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Old 02.05.2016, 21:55
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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That is completely disingenuous, not to mention an insult to people's intelligence. It's an old political trick to call any criticism a smear - the Scots Nats used it ad nauseum in 2014. It stops any proper discussion in its tracks.

Sometimes things are just as they appear. Ken is an anti-semite of old - it's just that he's more open about it these days. Increasing age can make people far less circumspect in their opinions.

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread have been utterly depressing and dispiriting - plus ca change.
The orignial quote from Sharma that started it was years ago, has been in the public domain for years and it gets spread about a week before elections? By a known rightwing outlet? Just a coincidence..... Right.....
Ken is not an anti-semite, he's anti-zionist, and pro negotiation, but not anti-semitic. From what I could assertain fro his past quotes and the stupid one he made last week, he meant that anti-semites hate all jews, no matter where they are, and that only critiquing Israel is not in itself anti-semitic. It's been taken by some to mean that it's OK to hate jews in Israel, but I cannot see how that jump was made.
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Old 02.05.2016, 22:20
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

Anti-semitic dirt picked up a week before elections is, nonetheless, anti-semitic dirt.

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.... It's been taken by some to mean that it's OK to hate jews in Israel, but I cannot see how that jump was made.
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I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing
It's the plain reading. He is saying that people who hate the Jews in Israel aren't real anti-Semites. That clear implies that it's ok to hate the Jews in Israel, even if it's not overtly stated. If he'd said "a real antisemite doesn’t just criticise the Israeli government," there wouldn't have been an issue.

If hating the Jews in Israel is not anti-Semitism (and I think it is), it's certainly racist.

Anyone who doesn't recognise that is guilty of anti-semanticism.
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Old 02.05.2016, 22:21
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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The orignial quote from Sharma that started it was years ago, has been in the public domain for years and it gets spread about a week before elections? By a known rightwing outlet? Just a coincidence..... Right.....
Ken is not an anti-semite, he's anti-zionist, and pro negotiation, but not anti-semitic. From what I could assertain fro his past quotes and the stupid one he made last week, he meant that anti-semites hate all jews, no matter where they are, and that only critiquing Israel is not in itself anti-semitic. It's been taken by some to mean that it's OK to hate jews in Israel, but I cannot see how that jump was made.
"it gets spread about a week before elections? By a known rightwing outlet? Just a coincidence..... Right....."

That is politics.
I am sure Labour would have done the same if there were Tory politicians stupid enough to leave such evidence around.
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  #56  
Old 02.05.2016, 22:34
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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For a little context, its a week before the local elections and right wing blogger Guido Fawkes publishes a tweet made by a Labour MP several years back (before she was in office)....
You regard 2014 as "several years back"? And it wasn't "a tweet" but a number of Facebook posts.

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Corbyn takes decisive action and suspends her..
Eventually. The main criticism of Jeremy is that he dragged his feet for too long, hoping the story would go away. Naz was his PPS so I guess he was driven as much by personal loyalty as any suspicion of sympathy with her views.

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Soon after Ken Livingston tries to defend her
Big mistake. Ken should have learnt from Naz Shah herself, who instead of trying to wriggle out of it, did what is very hard for anyone, and particularly politicians, to do. She admitted she was wrong, and gave what sounded to me like a sincere, and even quite touching, apology to a packed House of Commons

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There seems to be a willing coalition between right wingers and disgruntled back bench Labour MPs who will do anything to topple Jeremy Corbyn.
A majority of Labour MPs, it's true, are not Corbynites, but don't make the mistake of thinking that the Tories want to see Corbyn go. Seriously, his election as leader was regarded as a gift from the political gods, and the longer he stays in post, the more likely another Tory victory is in 2020.

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The Tories are floundering on so many issues, and yet Labour are getting all the negative headlines and manufactured crisis.
Both parties have had negative headlines. What about the IDS resignation? The steel industry? The farce over cuts to in-work benefits and disability payments? Trouble is, Labour hasn't been able to drive home the advantage. In PMQs immediately after the incendiary IDS resignation, Jeremy Corbyn made not a single reference to it!

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The Tories smear, that is what they do through their sympathetic news media barons, whether its trying to paint Labour Mayoral Candidate as a Muslim extremist or Corbyn and McDonnell as Hezbollah and IRA sympathisers.
Oh come off it -- McDonnell himself made a public apology on live TV about his previous IRA contacts -- and won a lot of respect for it, just like Naz Shah did.

Finally, McDonnell is one of many Labour people who have spoken out against Ken Livingstone's stupid remarks. The criticism of Ken has come almost entirely from Labour MPs, trade union leaders and high profile left wing commentators like Owen Jones and Polly Toynbee. Here's an example, and there are plenty more. The Tories haven't had to do anything.
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Old 02.05.2016, 22:50
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Anti-semitic dirt picked up a week before elections is, nonetheless, anti-semitic dirt.




It's the plain reading. He is saying that people who hate the Jews in Israel aren't real anti-Semites. That clear implies that it's ok to hate the Jews in Israel, even if it's not overtly stated. If he'd said "a real antisemite doesn’t just criticise the Israeli government," there wouldn't have been an issue.

If hating the Jews in Israel is not anti-Semitism (and I think it is), it's certainly racist.

Anyone who doesn't recognise that is guilty of anti-semanticism.
It was clumsey and stupid, the phrashing, but if you put it in the conext of a) the conversation and b) his previous remarks, it is much more likely he meant the latter. He never said that hating Jews in Israel was OK, he said that anti-semites hate jews no matter where they are, not just in one country, so compounding anyone who makes anti-zionist statements as an anti-semite is wrong.
Anyone who was anti-aparthied and made statements about whites in South Africa was not accused of being anti-white. Not that it was OK to lump all whites in SA with the aparthied movement, nor is it OK to lump all jews in Israel with the occupation of the west bank. but it is OK to say something against those that are actively oppressing people due to the colour of their skin, or their religious background without it being assumed that you hate all people that are linked to oppressors because of a shared heritage.
People should not base their opinions of others (be they individuals or groups) based on soundbites, tweets, memes and gifs. I'm sure there are things I've said here that you could take out of the wider context and pick apart.
And I can't believe you just called me an anti-semite based on the fact that I want you to look at the wider picture.... You have no idea of my context or my heritage.
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Old 02.05.2016, 23:22
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

For what it's worth I don't think Ken Livingstone is antisemitic in the usual sense. But his hostility towards Israeli actions in the West Bank and towards Palestine (some of which I share) is so intense that it spills over into quite unnecessary pronouncements about Hitler and 'the Jews' that are simply no-go territory in the context of the debate about Zionism and Labour attitudes.

Rightly or wrongly, there are some cultural places that you simply don't stray into e.g. using the "N word" (even from a sympathetic perspective), or making an insensitive remark about rape. Chit chat about what Hitler really thought about Jewish aspirations towards their homeland, before he murdered 6 million of them, is similarly unwise.

Ironic that Naz, a political ingénue, and the immediate source of the recent trouble, should instinctively know that she'd crossed the line while Ken, the horny handed political warrior, was quite unwilling or unable to remove his ancient ideological goggles.
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Old 03.05.2016, 01:32
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

I'm just going to throw some facts in here to show just how tainted by anti-semitism the Labour party has become.

1. The ideological Red-Green alliance (Left and Islamist) is the true source of this anti-semitism. Just how it helps Labour win in boroughs with high Muslim populations. The Islamists are behind all this, with their Marxists friends.

2. Surprise surprise Corbyn, the friend of true terrorists, and who's ideology comes from totalitarian murderers such as Lenin, can barely dare to do away with all his fellow travellers, and suspend, let alone revoke party membership of these disgusting Jew haters.

3. Corbyn's election by a mass influx of leftwing nutjobs for whom Palestinians are the damned of the earth, means the "anti-zionist" discourse has conflated beyond any spin control. It's too late now.

4. Ken Livingstone's "historical claims" on Hitler have been widely debunked by reknown historians, and the author he cites is thoroughly discredited.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...eorge-galloway

Don't be blinded by the "we're from the left, there's no way we can be racist" trope, or the attempt to present this as a smear. It's entirely the Left's fault, and the Tories are going to milk this no end.

By the way, what DOES it take to be excluded from the Labour Party these days? Seems anything goes...
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Old 03.05.2016, 07:13
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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The Islamists are behind all this, with their Marxists friends.
Do you not see the hyprocracy of this statement? Lumping all people of one faith together as 'bad' and 'other'. If anyone had used another monotheistic religion in this way you would expect them to be expelled from their political party.
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