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-   -   Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/253598-jeremy-corbyn-refuses-denounce-terrorist-friends-hamas-hezbollah.html)

TonyClifton 17.11.2019 13:41

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121285)
You really think that this has nothing to do with attracting the votes from citizens of Pakistani/Indian origins?

Perhaps you, like pashosh, don't understand how politics works.

And was “politics” the only reason they held offices of state within the previous government too? It’s sad that you can’t look beyond tokenism, and also interesting how such discussions reveal peoples true opinions regarding race.

Guest 17.11.2019 13:47

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121316)
And was “politics” the only reason they held offices of state within the previous government too? It’s sad that you can’t look beyond tokenism, and also interesting how such discussions reveal peoples true opinions regarding race.

But it's ok when you do it, presumably...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121185)
A racist with a British Pakistani as chancellor, a British Indian as Home Secretary and a black man as chairman of his party.


TonyClifton 17.11.2019 13:53

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueangel (Post 3121300)
My sources supporting this point of view are entirely Conservative. Rather tellingly, these are just a few of them, so if you have issue with my claim, perhaps you would care to take them up with my sources in an effort to get them to concede and see the error of their beliefs.

'Sadly, the Conservative party has increasingly abandoned these principles and values with a shift to the right of British politics. We no longer feel we can remain in the party of a government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the ERG and DUP.'
~ Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47304424

“Perhaps most disappointingly, it has increasingly become infected with the twin diseases of populism and English nationalism.”
~ Dr. Phillip Lee
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4228151.html



Are you able to provide a source that hasn’t left the party or had their whip removed over their stances on Brexit? It’s easy to claim that the party has “moves to the right” if one thinks it’ll win people over to ones cause. Brexit is not a Left/Right issue and this move to the right is not reflected in Boris Johnson’s policies (crime being the exception). And to think people have been accusing me of not understanding politics.

k_and_e 17.11.2019 14:05

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121321)
And to think people have been accusing me of not understanding politics.

I don't think anyone on this forum is understanding politics. We are all laymen with an opinion.

Unless I'm wrong and we have (former) MPs, ministers, party leaders and CEOs among our members.

Blueangel 17.11.2019 14:16

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWorWoo (Post 3121162)
If Labour win, then a vote and either a soft Brexit (with our rights protected) or no Brexit (depending on the 2nd referendum) and a giant nationalisaion programme to re-build our assets.

At the Clause 5 Labour meeting last night, protection of FOM was firmly removed from the manifesto pledges, so it would be fair to say that a 'soft brexit' option has likely gone with it as FOM is one of the 4 freedoms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissie7 (Post 3121183)
All the Labour-voting areas that voted for Brexit will go over to the Tories.

No. I don't believe they will. Where I come from (Wigan), that would be seen as a step too far with the BXP being a 'hafway house' between the two camps.
By contrast, in the constituency where my vote is registered (Windsor), there was a considerable Remain majority but the Tory MP is devoutly Leave and parrots the ERG line. Whereas the Wigan MP has supported Leave against her better judgement but out of respect for her electorate, the same cannot be said for Windsor's Tory MP, but in the 2017 GE, Lisa Nandy increased her share of the vote by 10% up to 62.2%. https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/co...cies/E14001039

greenmount 17.11.2019 14:29

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121304)
The two are simply not comparable and this “material” is simply being used by Labour’s supporters to deflect from their own tawdry behaviour. This is clear by the number of Labour MPs and members that have resigned over antisemitism within the party that isn’t reflected by resignations from the Conservative party. Also, neither the Conservative party nor Boris Johnson is being investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission as is the case with Labour.

Yawn...all parties engage in a bit of racism/anti-semitism/xenophobia depending on whose votes they need to attract. Nobody cares that much.

Let's look at the conservatives: Cameron, May, Boris and all those pseudo-alternatives....do they look like a bunch of people who know what are they doing...lately?
Does Boris seem like a reasonable Brexiter to you? Is this the way you want UK to present itself to the EU or to the world in general? Either way, many British folks seem to disagree with you.
IMHO - better focus on what's more important now....

Blueangel 17.11.2019 14:40

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Most Brits aren't actively antisemitic, but hardly any would be that bothered by antisemitism.
I strongly disagree with you on the latter part.
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121282)
And how's anti-semitism worse than xenophobia btw?

Xenophobia is a debilitating irrational fear of anything foreign and unfamiliar. It tends to be born of ignorance and lack of exposure. It's a sliding scale that can be as tiny as believing spaghetti can strangle your tonsils and choke you "because it's foreign", right up to the worst of racism. Xenophobes tend to be insular and can live out their days quite happily in their own little paranoid corner of the world without harming anyone. With increased exposure to other places and culturesm they have the capacity to change their minds.

Anti-semitism is also a sliding scale going from dislike, distrust stereotyping, all the way up to denying a group of people the right to exist. It's a targetted active belief, often acted upon in some way, and taken to the extreme, we all know where that can lead.

Tom1234 17.11.2019 14:59

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by k_and_e (Post 3121324)
I don't think anyone on this forum is understanding politics. We are all laymen with an opinion.

Unless I'm wrong and we have (former) MPs, ministers, party leaders and CEOs among our members.

In the U.K. at least, you don't need any formal qualifications or indeed expertise to become an MP.

Blueangel 17.11.2019 15:01

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton
Are you able to provide a source that hasn’t left the party or had their whip removed over their stances on Brexit? It’s easy to claim that the party has “moves to the right” if one thinks it’ll win people over to ones cause.

https://twitter.com/tobias_ellwood/s...21860700180481

greenmount 17.11.2019 15:01

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
@blueangel
It's hard to decide which one is the absolute lesser evil as both can lead to nasty things. But I agree with you, in principle. However, we don't live in a perfect world and many times need to ignore the less harmful sides of these phenomena. It's just how things are. I wonder though if the anti-semitism allegations against the Labour party are not a tricky way to distract people's attention from the awful deals that Boris et. co try to push forward.

k_and_e 17.11.2019 15:03

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3121352)
In the U.K. at least, you don't need any formal qualifications or indeed expertise to become an MP.

You need to work your way up in a highly political system. Managing to do so shows that you have the skills.

Tom1234 17.11.2019 15:06

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by k_and_e (Post 3121356)
You need to work your way up in a highly political system. Managing to do so shows that you have the skills.

That's not what you wrote before though.

Having said that, there's a huge hurdle to jump from standing as a prospective MP to actually being elected as one.

Pashosh 17.11.2019 15:40

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Yes, I know what I wrote, thank you.

Smh
So you would vote for a racist leader. QED.

Guest 17.11.2019 15:53

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pashosh (Post 3121368)
So you would vote for a racist leader. QED.

Jeremy Corbyn isn't standing in my constituency.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

And why are you so obsessed with my personal voting preferences? You're beginning to sound a bit stalkerish.

Raffles 17.11.2019 15:55

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pashosh (Post 3121368)
So you would vote for a racist leader. QED.

It's nothing to do with racism. Everyone of them twists and turns, and deals from the bottom. Whatever is advantageous for them at any given time, they see acceptable, racism does not come into it with the people, yes a great percentage of us are against racism in any form, though that's not what will affect anybody's vote. This is purely about taking the country forward Brexit or remain.

Guest 17.11.2019 16:03

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raffles (Post 3121373)
It's nothing to do with racism. Everyone of them twists and turns, and deals from the bottom. Whatever is advantageous for them at any given time, they see acceptable, racism does not come into it with the people, yes a great percentage of us are against racism in any form, though that's not what will affect anybody's vote. This is purely about taking the country forward Brexit or remain.

No, no, no! Because Pashosh has got family in the United Kingdom, we all have to vote purely based on how antisemitic the leader of the party is. Never mind about Brexit. Never mind about the collapse of the Union. Never mind about how much we like our local candidate.

No, we should all vote for the benefit of Pashosh's family.

:msnsarcastic:

Raffles 17.11.2019 16:08

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

No, no, no! Because Pashosh has got family in the United Kingdom, we all have to vote purely based on how antisemitic the leader of the party is. Never mind about Brexit. Never mind about the collapse of the Union. Never mind about how much we like our local candidate.

No, we should all vote for the benefit of Pashosh's family.

:msnsarcastic:
Yes. But you know and I know, that's got naff all to do with politics

Blueangel 17.11.2019 16:10

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121354)
@blueangel
It's hard to decide which one is the absolute lesser evil as both can lead to nasty things. But I agree with you, in principle. However, we don't live in a perfect world and many times need to ignore the less harmful sides of these phenomena. It's just how things are.

It is.
Deep inside, we all have our little red lines and prejudices, but most of us constantly revise these based upon new experiences and information. It can be upsetting, exhausting and challenging, but if we can never admit to being wrong and move forward, we'll just stagnate and society will never progress. My politically 'right on' 17yr old self would have adamantly insisted that she could never date a South African, yet here I am 8yrs into living with a Saffa who I love more than life. He's amazed that I knew about Steve Biko at the time, and later about the work of Kevin Carter, and I'm amazed that his first albums were by Bob Marley and Rodriguez, bought on the black market of course, and taped by all his friends. I'm amazed that his father insisted that "we fight this evil from the inside out, and we will win". I'm amazed that his mother's first husband was a Jew who needed to be married to get passage out of Europe after the war.

For several years before I met my OH, my plus one for formal events was a gay Jewish friend and colleague. He's now engaged to a wonderful Muslim man. Individual people have incredible lives that break all taboos and prejudices, and there's no substitute for sitting down and talking to them.
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121354)
I wonder though if the anti-semitism allegations against the Labour party are not a tricky way to distract people's attention from the awful deals that Boris et. co try to push forward.

They're not, unfortunately.
The Labour Party of today isn't the same as it was a decade ago, and the same goes for the Tories. Personally, I blame a lot of it on 'entryism' between 2015 and now. Before that time, far left parties and their supporters were actively banned from being Labour Party members. This included people like the SWP who I've dealt with personally a number of times and despise because a lot of them are openly anti-semitic and violent. The Tories have the same issue with BNP and NF people joining UKIP then hiding their history (many with various name changes) and joining the Conservatives Party.

Back in early 2015, (and just from memory, so please excuse any errors) it was £25 to join the Conservative Party and £48(?) to join the Labour Party. During the 2015 Labour Leadership contest, the party introduced a £3 registered supporter category which was only avalailable for a few days but gave the supporter voting rights in the leadership ballot less than a month later. These applications were largely unchecked owing to time constraints, so there was a flood of new, unchecked voters flooding into the party and they gave Corbyn a very unexpected landslide victory. It wasn't until the campaign a year later, to get these £3 supporters to upgrade to the new £25 membership, that many of these people were checked.

Guest 17.11.2019 19:01

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3121289)
It's not a problem a political party faces - it's a problem which Jewish people face.

Tell that to this thread. It's all about anti-Semitism and Corbyn/Labour, if you'd believe a lot of posters.

But you're right in that it isn't currently a UK key political issue.

Stop attempting to move the goalposts or at least be less selective in the posts you read.

Guest 17.11.2019 19:18

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissie7 (Post 3121306)
Because you appear to take a very polarised, sectarian view - that anyone who does not have your views must be a Tory and therefore 'evil'. I haven't expressed an opinion about Boris' behaviour - I just said that your reaction to him was unhinged.

As it happens, I've never voted Tory in my life either, but I respect the fact that we live in a democracy and have the freedom to vote for whichever party we like. People's opinions are often contradictory and can change, just as political parties change.

The Labour party in its present incarnation does not deserve to win a single seat in the election, not just because of its entrenched antisemitism, but because it has never had a clear policy on Brexit and that will be its undoing.

Then I'm afraid you need to re-read what I wrote and maybe dial the outrage down a notch. And I'm fairly certain you're using sectarian incorrectly. But hey ho.

Where have I made any comment about those who do not share my view? I don't even recall sharing my political views in full. Who the hell would be interested in that? I have said, many times, in different words, that I think Boris is dangerous and ill-equipped for the role of PM, a role he has clearly been slavering over for quite some time. That is an opinion to which i am entitled. It is an opinion which clearly twists your melon. That, to be frank, is far more your issue than mine.

I do not appreciate your implication that I have been disrespectful of others' - and by that I assume you really mean your - opinion. I may not agree with you but I certainly haven't stooped to casting aspersions about your views.

The very fact you have repeatedly called my opinion about Johnson "unhinged" speaks volumes about your personality, however.

Again, I find it interesting that you also cannot seem to focus on the debate and feel the need to insult the poster. You say that opinions are contradictory and yet you clearly have a problem with opinions that do not neatly line up behind yours. You still haven't answered my question btw. You just attempted to deflect.


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