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-   -   Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/253598-jeremy-corbyn-refuses-denounce-terrorist-friends-hamas-hezbollah.html)

Blueangel 17.11.2019 19:51

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

I have said, many times, in different words, that I think Boris is dangerous and ill-equipped for the role of PM, a role he has clearly been slavering over for quite some time.
In a very unwelcome way, the huge lowering of standards in public life that he embodies, almost has me hankering after the days of Profumo and Thorpe. It almost feels old fashioned to point out that an MPs private life can leave them open to blackmail and corruption, and whilst I'm thankful that a person's sexuality can no longer be used aganst them, I'm frequently left flabbergasted by how teflon our PM is.

Tom1234 17.11.2019 19:54

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
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Stop attempting to move the goalposts or at least be less selective in the posts you read.
I read some of them. I haven't the time or the inclination to respond to them all.

chrissie7 17.11.2019 20:17

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
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And I'm fairly certain you're using sectarian incorrectly. But hey ho.

You still haven't answered my question btw. You just attempted to deflect.
Yes, I thought I'd used it incorrectly too, but apparently not.

I don't think you've asked me a question.

MsWorWoo 17.11.2019 22:31

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueangel (Post 3121380)
The Labour Party of today isn't the same as it was a decade ago, and the same goes for the Tories. Personally, I blame a lot of it on 'entryism' between 2015 and now. Before that time, far left parties and their supporters were actively banned from being Labour Party members. This included people like the SWP who I've dealt with personally a number of times and despise because a lot of them are openly anti-semitic and violent. The Tories have the same issue with BNP and NF people joining UKIP then hiding their history (many with various name changes) and joining the Conservatives Party.

Back in early 2015, (and just from memory, so please excuse any errors) it was £25 to join the Conservative Party and £48(?) to join the Labour Party. During the 2015 Labour Leadership contest, the party introduced a £3 registered supporter category which was only avalailable for a few days but gave the supporter voting rights in the leadership ballot less than a month later. These applications were largely unchecked owing to time constraints, so there was a flood of new, unchecked voters flooding into the party and they gave Corbyn a very unexpected landslide victory. It wasn't until the campaign a year later, to get these £3 supporters to upgrade to the new £25 membership, that many of these people were checked.

Indeed, as an Old Labour person I find it very worrying that the SWP disappeared at the same time as Momentum started up. I find the Trotsky takeover of my party as distressing as the Soft Tory takeover in the 90’s. My father, an active member, councillor many times over (twice right now) has been kicked out of the constituency committee (although as councilor he still has input) for daring to point out that supporting a known anti-semite was bad. Saying that, we stay in, we weathered the last storm and corrected the course.... slight over correction actually, but we can steer it back again only if we stay on the ship.

Guest 17.11.2019 22:31

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
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Why is my opinion unhinged but yours is not? My political views can be just as strong as yours, can they not?
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissie7 (Post 3121440)
Yes, I thought I'd used it incorrectly too, but apparently not.

I don't think you've asked me a question.

It's usually to do with sects or groups or be the opposite of religious but potato tomato etc.

See above for qu. Or not. Fill your boots. Or don't.

greenmount 17.11.2019 22:38

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueangel (Post 3121432)
In a very unwelcome way, the huge lowering of standards in public life that he embodies, almost has me hankering after the days of Profumo and Thorpe..

That's the main problem, blueangel. Look at us, even having this sort of discussions (it's uncomfortable and I feel sorry for us and for Pashosh too).
I would have never thought 10 years ago that we would need to "indulge" in this form of moral relativism so we can move forward. Post-second world war, post-cold war and during (still) European Union time. What a disappointment in a way....of course I know that ten years ago we in the East had a naivety and optimism that others will never understand. Anyway, I do believe that not only EU can change, but the way politics is done today can change. I'm sick and tired of this vulgar populism that was promoted by certain circles and started in certain places and has spread now like the plague.
What do you think about the Liberal Democrats, since you seem rather sad and disappointed too because of the way the Labour party has changed? Whom with you vote for? Is there a middle way? Does it make sense to take it into consideration?

Blueangel 17.11.2019 23:08

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWooWoo
Indeed, as an Old Labour person I find it very worrying that the SWP disappeared at the same time as Momentum started up. I find the Trotsky takeover of my party as distressing as the Soft Tory takeover in the 90ís. My father, an active member, councillor many times over (twice right now) has been kicked out of the constituency meetings for daring to point out that supporting a known anti-semite was bad. Saying that, we stay in, we weathered the last storm and corrected the course.... slight over correction actually, but we can steer it back again only if we stay on the ship.

Exactly. To my mind, Blair was an act of desperation to claim the centre ground and break the tory stronghold, and I'm still bloody glad the '97 GE went Labour's way. I'll always remember that night as I'd come off shift at 2.30am and my phone began ringing at 4am when Portillo lost his seat, first my mum, then my aunt, brother, cousins...all celebrating that seat win. I've always had a lot of time for old, traditional Labour but exposure to the SWP violence and threats as a trade union rep, completely turned me off. One of them tried to have me blackballed off the union, and I knew nothing about it until I was sat on the top table at the annual wage negotiation members meeting in front of a 3-400 colleagues. Thankfully, the members unanimously voted in my favour, but it was a very intimidating experience and he made sure I knew it was because he didn't approve of women being union reps. Even so, I still believe most Labour MPs are damned good people, but it concerns me deeply that the SWP are ardent Brexiters and endorsing Labour in this election. https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/49...rexit+deadlock

It's time for Labour to get their party back. I just hope to god they do it soon.

Blueangel 18.11.2019 00:17

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121471)
I'm sick and tired of this vulgar populism that was promoted by certain circles and started in certain places and has spread now like the plague.

I firmly believe that plague is ending, particularly since the Austrian GE results. We just need to make sure it happens sooner rather than later.
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121471)
What do you think about the Liberal Democrats, since you seem rather sad and disappointed too because of the way the Labour party has changed? Whom with you vote for? Is there a middle way? Does it make sense to take it into consideration?

I'm biased because I've been LD since '88 and was Liberal before that.

I started off in my mid teens looking into the Anti-Nazi League until I realised it was a front for the SWP (socialist worker's party). I knew I wanted zero tolerance on bigotry, equal rights, proportional representation and ring-fenced funding for the NHS. At the time, only the Liberals and then the LDs embodied that, but as with any political entity, there are good times and bad. The 2010 coalition with the Tories destroyed many good people in the LDs and largely destroyed the party. Labour will never let us get past the hike in tuition fees which was against the LDs election manifesto, but conveniently forget that Blair did exactly the same in '98 when he introduced tuition fees. They also forget to mention that the fees increase was based upon the findings of the Browne Review which was set up by the last Labour government, but the findings weren't published until after the 2010 GE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browne_Review

LD sources I spoke to at the time said the Tories wanted to increase fees to £16.5k but the LDs talked them down to £9k.

I'll happily be voting LD in this election because it's also been named as the strategic party to vote for to depose the Tories in my constituency. I believe a lot of new, young voters will vote Green, and there are a number of good independents worthy of consideration. I see a lot of gumpf from Momentum calling LDs 'yellow tories', but find that frankly pathetic. Both they and the tories have lost prominent, centrist MPs to the LDs in recent months.

Finally, I'm a very strong believer in the NHS and follow the analysis of the parties manifesto pledges reported in The Lancet (most respected medical journal in the UK). In both 2010 and 2015, the manifesto they most approved of was the LD one, which bucks the belief that Labour are the party of the NHS to some degree.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...642-3/fulltext
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...587-6/fulltext

TonyClifton 18.11.2019 07:09

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121354)
I wonder though if the anti-semitism allegations against the Labour party are not a tricky way to distract people's attention from the awful deals that Boris et. co try to push forward.

To repeat again as you donít seem to understand the situation. The allegations are coming from members of the Labour Party! Itís not a grand political conspiracy! These are lifelong Labour Party members and MPs leaving the party in droves because they feel threatened as they are Jewish. It has NOTHING to do with Boris Johnson, this problem came to the surface before he was even PM.

I find it utterly distasteful the way people are diminishing how serious this is. The way the member who has Jewish family members in the UK was spoken to was really quite shocking.

Guest 18.11.2019 07:16

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121510)
To repeat again as you don’t seem to understand the situation. The allegations are coming from members of the Labour Party! It’s not a grand political conspiracy! These are lifelong Labour Party members and MPs leaving the party in droves because they feel threatened as they are Jewish. It has NOTHING to do with Boris Johnson, this problem came to the surface before he was even PM.

I find it utterly distasteful the way people are diminishing how serious this is. The way the member who has Jewish family members in the UK was spoken to was really quite shocking.

If the people of the United Kingdom thought it was serious, Labour would be unelectable. Labour isn't unelectable.

You can do the maths for yourself.

Mikers 18.11.2019 07:19

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

If the people of the United Kingdom thought it was serious, Labour would be unelectable. Labour isn't unelectable.

You can do the maths for yourself.
Labour is unelectable, but mainly for its business policies and non stance on Europe.

chrissie7 18.11.2019 08:06

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

It's usually to do with sects or groups or be the opposite of religious but potato tomato etc.

See above for qu. Or not. Fill your boots. Or don't.
No, it's not confined only to religious groups or sects, but can apply to any sort of partisan/fanatical behaviour that discriminates against another group.

As for your question, I haven't expressed any opinions, but of course anyone's opinion is as valid as the next person's. It's how they express it that matters and how tolerant they are of other points of view and whether they can engage with them.

Guest 18.11.2019 08:13

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissie7 (Post 3121518)
No, it's not confined only to religious groups or sects, but can apply to any sort of partisan/fanatical behaviour that discriminates against another group.

As for your question, I haven't expressed any opinions, but of course anyone's opinion is as valid as the next person's. It's how they express it that matters and how tolerant they are of other points of view and whether they can engage with them.

The member with whom you are corresponding has shown no evidence of sectarian fervor.

Indeed, judging by tone alone (since I have met neither of you), you are the one who comes across as the more fervid.

Funny how perception works, isn't it? ;)

chrissie7 18.11.2019 08:15

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121510)
I find it utterly distasteful the way people are diminishing how serious this is. The way the member who has Jewish family members in the UK was spoken to was really quite shocking.

Yes, I thought so too. It's clear some don't people understand or care that antisemitism is very distressing, whether it's very casual and unthinking, or more deliberate.

Guest 18.11.2019 08:31

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissie7 (Post 3121520)
Yes, I thought so too. It's clear some don't people understand or care that antisemitism is very distressing, whether it's very casual and unthinking, or more deliberate.

Antisemitism is horrible. Nobody is arguing that it isn't.

But it isn't politically important in the context of the forthcoming election, which is the essence of this argument. How we feel about that is neither here nor there.

TonyClifton 18.11.2019 08:37

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissie7 (Post 3121520)
Yes, I thought so too. It's clear some don't people understand or care that antisemitism is very distressing, whether it's very casual and unthinking, or more deliberate.

The letter in the original link makes the point best (a point that many people on here are arguing against),

ďBut antisemitism is central to a wider debate about the kind of country we want to be. To ignore it because Brexit looms larger is to declare that anti-Jewish prejudice is a price worth paying for a Labour government.Ē

If you donít like Boris Johnson or the Conservative Party then thatís fine, but I implore people not to vote for Labour. Vote for the Lib Demís, vote for the Greens, vote for Lord Buckethead, but please donít legitimise the current Labour Party.

greenmount 18.11.2019 08:44

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121510)
To repeat again as you donít seem to understand the situation. The allegations are coming from members of the Labour Party! Itís not a grand political conspiracy! These are lifelong Labour Party members and MPs leaving the party in droves because they feel threatened as they are Jewish. It has NOTHING to do with Boris Johnson, this problem came to the surface before he was even PM.

I find it utterly distasteful the way people are diminishing how serious this is. The way the member who has Jewish family members in the UK was spoken to was really quite shocking.

Which means the Labour Party has the ability to sort itself out and is well aware of those issues.
On the distastefulness scale, I found the Conservatives and their love affairs with Ukip and the likes even more distateful.

TonyClifton 18.11.2019 08:53

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121529)
Which means the Labour Party has the ability to sort itself out and is well aware of those issues.
On the distastefulness scale, I found the Conservatives and their love affairs with Ukip and the likes even more distateful.

I’m sorry to be blunt, but it doesn’t sound like you really know what you’re talking about. The Conservatives have never had “love affairs” (I presume you mean pacts) with UKIP. Additionally, the reason people continue to leave the Labour Party is precisely due to their inability to sort itself out regarding antisemitism under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

Watch the video in the link below. Listen to what he is saying. This is a lifelong Labour member and former Labour MP.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4280816.html

greenmount 18.11.2019 09:13

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121531)
I’m sorry to be blunt, but it doesn’t sound like you really know what you’re talking about. The Conservatives have never had “love affairs” (I presume you mean pacts) with UKIP. Additionally, the reason people continue to leave the Labour Party is precisely due to their inability to sort itself out regarding antisemitism under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

Watch the video in the link below. Listen to what he is saying. This is a lifelong Labour member and former Labour MP.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4280816.html

Are all the "conservatives" that blind?

Why do you try so hard to deny that Tories have similar issues as Labour? All distasteful things equal, why would you vote for the conservatives?

Please try to focus on the Brexit deal and who do you want to regulate those things for the years to come.

Guest 18.11.2019 09:16

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121535)
Are all the "conservatives" that blind?

Anyone who still describes themself as a "conservative" in the year 2019 must be.


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