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-   -   Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/253598-jeremy-corbyn-refuses-denounce-terrorist-friends-hamas-hezbollah.html)

TonyClifton 18.11.2019 09:46

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3121535)
Are all the "conservatives" that blind?

Why do you try so hard to deny that Tories have similar issues as Labour? All distasteful things equal, why would you vote for the conservatives?

Please try to focus on the Brexit deal and who do you want to regulate those things for the years to come.

Have you been reading what Iíve written? I donít wish to focus on Brexit because I believe avoiding having the country run by a party riddled with antisemites to be of far greater importance. Even if I did, I would STILL vote for the Conservatives over Labour as Labour have no coherent policy regarding Brexit to speak of.

Finally regarding racism, the Tories do not have similar issues to Labour. Go and read up about it, they really donít. The two are not remotely comparable.

Guest 18.11.2019 09:51

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121541)

Finally regarding racism, the Tories do not have similar issues to Labour. Go and read up about it, they really donít. The two are not remotely comparable.

You accidentally demonstrated a couple of pages back that they are indeed completely comparable.

Just because you are (presumably) a Tory fanboi, doesn't mean they don't have a similar endemic racist culture within the party in very much the same way as the Labour Party. It just means you can't or won't see it.

TonyClifton 18.11.2019 10:08

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

You accidentally demonstrated a couple of pages back that they are indeed completely comparable.

Just because you are (presumably) a Tory fanboi, doesn't mean they don't have a similar endemic racist culture within the party in very much the same way as the Labour Party. It just means you can't or won't see it.
I did no such thing. Find the examples of Tory MPs and party members leaving the party due to racism, or find the investigation by EHRC, or find the examples as that highlighted by Nick Cohen (link below) this morning and we can talk. As it is you seem only to be capable of making snarky comments to anything I write so I decided to ignore you.

https://twitter.com/nickcohen4/statu...48741768417286

Guest 18.11.2019 10:09

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

You accidentally demonstrated a couple of pages back that they are indeed completely comparable.

Just because you are (presumably) a Tory fanboi, doesn't mean they don't have a similar endemic racist culture within the party in very much the same way as the Labour Party. It just means you can't or won't see it.
Antisemitism runs deep in British culture. When Ann Widdecombe said there was "something of the night" about Michael Howard, she was propagating an old antisemitic trope. As I said earlier, not many Brits are actively antisemitic these days, but they don't have much of a problem with it either - except when it suits.

Yes, Blueangel, we know that Wigan has an unusually progressive and pro-Jewish outlook compared to the rest of Britain. You don't need to remind us again... ;)

Guest 18.11.2019 10:11

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121547)
I did no such thing. Find the examples of Tory MPs and party members leaving the party due to racism

Tories have proven again and again that they have no principles. Why on earth would any of them leave their party because of endemic racism when they don't actually care about it in the first place?

greenmount 18.11.2019 10:16

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
It's his prerogative to be a conservative, Ukip fan and what not.
If I were British, I wouldn't vote with the conservatives in their current form (probably not ever, I'm more like Blueangel I guess but right now I'd probably vote with the Labour because they might have a greater impact). But it's neither my place, nor my intention to tell anyone how to vote, so I'll leave it at that. I feel like I understood much better what's going on there, so thank you all, seriously.

TonyClifton 18.11.2019 10:19

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Tories have proven again and again that they have no principles. Why on earth would any of them leave their party because of endemic racism when they don't actually care about it in the first place?
The number of MPs that have resigned over the party’s Brexit position demonstrates that Conservative Party MPs do have principles.

Guest 18.11.2019 10:37

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton (Post 3121551)
The number of MPs that have resigned over the partyís Brexit position demonstrates that Conservative Party MPs do have principles.

The Conservative party does not have a Brexit position.

Neither does the Labour party, for that matter, but at least they're not the ones who have been shafting the electorate, insulting our friends, endangering the Union, killing the NHS, buggering up education and generally being bloody useless for the last decade.

Blueangel 18.11.2019 13:01

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton
To repeat again as you donít seem to understand the situation. The allegations are coming from members of the Labour Party! Itís not a grand political conspiracy! These are lifelong Labour Party members and MPs leaving the party in droves because they feel threatened as they are Jewish. It has NOTHING to do with Boris Johnson, this problem came to the surface before he was even PM.

I find it utterly distasteful the way people are diminishing how serious this is. The way the member who has Jewish family members in the UK was spoken to was really quite shocking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyClifton
Are you able to provide a source that hasnít left the party or had their whip removed over their stances on Brexit? Itís easy to claim that the party has ďmoves to the rightĒ if one thinks itíll win people over to ones cause. Brexit is not a Left/Right issue and this move to the right is not reflected in Boris Johnsonís policies (crime being the exception). And to think people have been accusing me of not understanding politics.

I'm accusing you of rank hypocrisy and double standards.
You reject testimony from the former Father of The House because it doesn't support your view and he has now retired, yet you accept it from Labour MPs when it endorses your view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount
Iím sorry to be blunt, but it doesnít sound like you really know what youíre talking about.

The member you were referring to here is not a British national, or even a native English speaker. She's an intelligent woman asking some very pertinent questions about British politics because many of the themes running through this campaign are international in nature. Whilst you may choose to fob her queries off, others of us will strive to do our best in answering her, though for my part, I know I tend to waffle. :msnblush:

Blueangel 18.11.2019 13:34

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Finally regarding racism, the Tories do not have similar issues to Labour. Go and read up about it, they really donít. The two are not remotely comparable.
Former co-chair of the Conservative Party, Baroness Warsi, disagrees with you. I wonder who is best placed to know the facts of the matter :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50358879

Quote:

Yes, Blueangel, we know that Wigan has an unusually progressive and pro-Jewish outlook compared to the rest of Britain. You don't need to remind us again... ;)
Greater Manchester has a large Jewish population, second only to Greater London. Prestwich and Salford are the main Jewish areas, and Sedgley Park has 5 synagogues. I have Jewish ancestors, current Jewish family members, etc, There were 250 attacks on Jews in Greater Manchester last year. Do not tell me that anti-semiticism isn't an issue when I've seen it my entire life whilst travelling around the country supporting Spurs.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ening-15790481

TonyClifton 18.11.2019 13:45

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueangel (Post 3121592)
I'm accusing you of rank hypocrisy and double standards.
You reject testimony from the former Father of The House because it doesn't support your view and he has now retired, yet you accept it from Labour MPs when it endorses your view.

The member you were referring to here is not a British national, or even a native English speaker. She's an intelligent woman asking some very pertinent questions about British politics because many of the themes running through this campaign are international in nature. Whilst you may choose to fob her queries off, others of us will strive to do our best in answering her, though for my part, I know I tend to waffle. :msnblush:

Iím sorry, but how am I to know that? I tried on numerous occasions to explain to the member the seriousness of whatís going on in the Labour Party yet ďsheĒ kept coming back to the point of Tories/Brexit/UKIP.

Thereís another thread Iíve been following on the situation in Hong Kong (where I must say the level of discussion is significantly higher than here or on the Brexit thread), my knowledge on the situation is limited and itís interesting to learn from other members who have experience from the region. I wouldnít like to think I would make wild accusations about the local politics without prior knowledge. Sometimes itís better to read, you never know, you may learn something.

p.s. regarding Ken Clarke, I disregard his views not because he is old, or retired, or was father of the house, simply due to his stance on Brexit. Iíll repeat, if you find a party member who hasnít quit the party or had the whip removed over Brexit saying that the party is now far right then we can talk.

Guest 18.11.2019 13:47

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueangel (Post 3121600)
Do not tell me that anti-semiticism isn't an issue

I didn't say it isn't an issue, nor would I ever say it isn't an issue.

You might want to go and give those reading glasses a wipe. ;)

Blueangel 18.11.2019 13:52

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

I didn't say it isn't an issue, nor would I ever say it isn't an issue.

You might want to go and give those reading glasses a wipe. ;)
You might want to stop playing it down because, whether we like it or not, it's a growing issue that needs to be confronted head on, 'Lest We Forget'.

Guest 18.11.2019 13:55

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissie7 (Post 3121518)

As for your question, I haven't expressed any opinions, but of course anyone's opinion is as valid as the next person's. It's how they express it that matters and how tolerant they are of other points of view and whether they can engage with them.

I believe your calling my views unhinged qualifies as an opinion. As for the rest, I would agree with you. Maybe practise what you preach.


Of course anti-Semitism is foul. Vile. Unacceptable. As are the other isms. It should matter a lot more in the UK but it simply does not. Railing against that fact does not make it true. This upcoming election is pretty much going to be single issue. The NHS, school funding, free bloody broadband... is all just window dressing.

Guest 18.11.2019 14:05

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueangel (Post 3121607)
You might want to stop playing it down because, whether we like it or not, it's a growing issue that needs to be confronted head on, 'Lest We Forget'.

I'm not playing it down.

Do you ever actually bother to read people's posts or do you just look at the username and figure you know what they're going to say anyway so it isn't worth the bother?

Guest 18.11.2019 14:25

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueangel (Post 3121607)
You might want to stop playing it down because, whether we like it or not, it's a growing issue that needs to be confronted head on, 'Lest We Forget'.

Lest we Forget is not quite appropriate here.

And I'm with DB on this: anti-Semitism simply isn't a critical political issue right now in the UK. It probably never will be. There aren't enough folk high enough up the various food chains who give a flying duck. Is that fair? No. Right? Probably not at all. The reality? Yep.

Blueangel 18.11.2019 15:29

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

I'm not playing it down.

Do you ever actually bother to read people's posts or do you just look at the username and figure you know what they're going to say anyway so it isn't worth the bother?
Yes, I do read people's posts...

#906 There is nothing else in this election that matters. Nothing. Not crime, not antisemitism, not the economy, not the NHS.
#923 I'm not sure how politically engaged the various communities are compared to their Jewish equivalents, but persecuting them never seemed to hurt the Tories' electoral chances in the eighties and nineties, which shows us how seriously British voters are likely to take antisemitism in the Labour party in 2019.
#929 When it comes to the crunch, Jews - no matter how long their families have lived in Britain - are just another special interest group, and not a particularly big or important one. Most Brits aren't actively antisemitic, but hardly any would be that bothered by antisemitism.
#956 Because Pashosh has got family in the United Kingdom, we all have to vote purely based on how antisemitic the leader of the party is. Never mind about Brexit. Never mind about the collapse of the Union. Never mind about how much we like our local candidate.
#975 Antisemitism is horrible. Nobody is arguing that it isn't.
But it isn't politically important in the context of the forthcoming election, which is the essence of this argument
#984 As I said earlier, not many Brits are actively antisemitic these days, but they don't have much of a problem with it either - except when it suits.

I'm not calling you anti-semitic in any way, shape or form, but I find it particularly foolhardy to underestimate the damage that has been done to the party's chances by the leadership's abject refusal to sufficiently tackle a central issue that has blighted the party over the last 4yrs.

I'm not against the Labour party. I've voted Labour tactically in the past, and on the occasions when LD didn't field a candidate in local elections. The vast majority of Labour MPs and members are decent people, but even if the recommended tactical vote for my constituency in the GE was Labour, I couldn't bring myself to because of the current leadership. You can be as glib about this as you like, but as my friends know well, it breaks my heart to see Labour as it currently is, so much talent, promise and hope being overshadowed by...I just don't have the words for him anymore. It's heartbreaking to watch.

Guest 18.11.2019 19:48

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

You can be as glib about this as you like,
You think I'm being glib?

You really have no idea, do you? :msnsarcastic:

Guest 18.11.2019 20:17

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Blueangel, I don't think anyone is being glib here. I was, a bit, but out of frustration. The sentiments are real.

I get you hate Corbyn and the horse he rode in on, but that seems, to my eyes, to have completely biased you against an entire party.

I have grave concerns about Jo Swinson. She is essentially a career politician with very little experience doing anything else. She's a little too Tory for my liking. She also voted to raise uni tuition to 9K a year, which pisses me off as she was likely in the final year of the means-tested grant and free tuition academic year and with more favourable loan repayment terms.

marton 18.11.2019 20:28

Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah
 
Quote:

Antisemitism runs deep in British culture. When Ann Widdecombe said there was "something of the night" about Michael Howard, she was propagating an old antisemitic trope. As I said earlier, not many Brits are actively antisemitic these days, but they don't have much of a problem with it either - except when it suits.

Yes, Blueangel, we know that Wigan has an unusually progressive and pro-Jewish outlook compared to the rest of Britain. You don't need to remind us again... ;)
Don't forget to mention Wigan Pier.

Glad I am too long away from the UK to vote; I really do not have a clue who I would vote for. Pity the Official Monster Raving Loony Party ain't around anymore.


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