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  #101  
Old 03.05.2016, 13:17
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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"2M people marched against war in Iraq, how the hell did they get away with it? " In a country of ca. 60M; peanuts!

"Eventually this will rebalance to the left it has to."

To quote a phrase often attributed to Maggie Thatcher "“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
The problem is with capitalism when they run out of fake money, they eventually turn to socialism. - Cata1yst circa 2008.

QE Bank Failures, train company subsidies, railtrack, failed security at olympics....

Maggies greatest creation? = New Labour

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...g-8564541.html
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  #102  
Old 03.05.2016, 13:25
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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This is the fact that people like Corbyn love to forget. Clinton managed to broker a deal where the Palestinians were offered virtually everything they wanted, and Arafat managed to screw it up.
This old canard again

The only reason Arafat walked away is because he would have been shot as a traitor for agreeing to the land equivalent of Swiss cheese. A Palestinian state pockmarked by Israeli settlements and secure roads linking them. I don't need to tell you that nobody in their right mind would have accepted such a flawed offer.. and to call it generous is the cruellest joke of all.

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The Israelis portrayed it as the Palestinians receiving 96% of the West Bank. But the figure is misleading. The Israelis did not include parts of the West Bank they had already appropriated.
The Palestine that would have emerged from such a settlement would not have been viable. It would have been in about half-a-dozen chunks, with huge Jewish settlements in between - a Middle East Bantustan. The Israeli army would also have retained the proposed Palestinian state’s eastern border, the Jordan valley, for six to 10 years and, more significantly, another strip along the Dead Sea coast for an unspecified period: so much for being an independent state.



A genuinely generous offer by Barak might have secured peace. That was the missed historic opportunity. If Israel had been more magnanimous at Camp David, it could have had the greater prize of long-term stability.

There is a huge danger attached to the Israeli view that Arafat spurned a great offer. Accepting this version perpetuates the Israeli myth that the Palestinians will not be happy until the Jews are pushed back into the sea and that the West Bank and Gaza are full of gunmen and bombers intent on making that happen.

There are such people - but most Palestinians are interested less in the destruction of Israel than in establishing a proper Palestinian state. Most are as exercised about the poor quality of the leadership round Arafat and about the endemic corruption and lack of democracy in their own society as they are about Israel. What they want is for the Israeli army to go home and to take the Jewish settlers with them. There will be no peace until that happens.

Source: “The real deal; Ewen Macaskill: Israel’s View That Arafat Missed A Chance For Peace Under Barak Is Dangerously Deluded”, The Guardian, 14 April 2001.
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  #103  
Old 03.05.2016, 13:36
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Oh I see - you'll be suggesting Brown was actually a Tory plant hell bent on bringing the Labour party down and making them unelectable for the foreseeable future.

(Alternatively it could be proffered that Labour realized that the only way to get elected was to tell the electorate they'd all be richer under a Labour government and that the never-ending economic growth would both never end and pay for the excess in creating it. Or Tory economic policy without the budget cuts)

The problem Labour have now is that the electorate look at them and think:
- I don't trust your centre/right side because all you did was spend spend spend and have no idea how to pay the bills
- I don't trust your left because I'll be taxed (even) more and won't be able to buy a new television every 2 years on interest free credit - and the DFS sale is on and I fancy a new sofa to watch Sky Sports from.

Labour's image no longer includes "caring" because the perception is that they cared about the wrong things for a long time.

Perhaps if they made it clear that councils would no longer be able to have 30 translators on call from a consulting company and instead councils would provide free childcare to working parents; or ensured the essential council services were provided internally instead of outsourced McClean servicing - with the company's creaming off 25% - people might actually believe the party stood for them.
Pretty much yes, don't forget Thatcher said New Labour was her greatest creation. Tory plant? No right wing led by the city and newspapers yes.

Completely agree with everything else written. Although I have no hope of Labour reacting in the way that they should. So more of the same for the next 10 years, unless something catastrophic happens. Say another financial bubble crash, which is on the cards.
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  #104  
Old 03.05.2016, 13:41
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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This old canard again

The only reason Arafat walked away is because he would have been shot as a traitor for agreeing to the land equivalent of Swiss cheese. A Palestinian state pockmarked by Israeli settlements and secure roads linking them. I don't need to tell you that nobody in their right mind would have accepted such a flawed offer.. and to call it generous is the cruellest joke of all.
Ehud Barak offered far more than any Israeli leader will ever give up and Arafat knew that. Yet he still rejected it. A pragmatist would have bitten his arm off and seen it as the first steps to peace. Perhaps Arafat thought his political career would suffer a la Michael Collins after he negotiated the Anglo-Irish treaty. Or perhaps it's just far easier to go on playing the victim.
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  #105  
Old 03.05.2016, 13:53
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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This old canard again

The only reason Arafat walked away is because he would have been shot as a traitor for agreeing to the land equivalent of Swiss cheese. A Palestinian state pockmarked by Israeli settlements and secure roads linking them. I don't need to tell you that nobody in their right mind would have accepted such a flawed offer..
Well, they turned down this offer (that the Jews accepted),


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most Palestinians are interested less in the destruction of Israel than in establishing a proper Palestinian state.
So why did they vote Hamas in?
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  #106  
Old 03.05.2016, 13:58
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Ehud Barak offered far more than any Israeli leader will ever give up and Arafat knew that. Yet he still rejected it. A pragmatist would have bitten his arm off and seen it as the first steps to peace. Perhaps Arafat thought his political career would suffer a la Michael Collins after he negotiated the Anglo-Irish treaty. Or perhaps it's just far easier to go on playing the victim.
Keep on believing that Loz if it makes you feel better. The fact of the matter is the Palestinians were offered a flawed state where they would still be under Israeli occupation. And FYI there were no first steps, Israel was negotiating for a full and final settlement. No going back, no further negotiation.

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Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank–while retaining “security control” over other parts–that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert–about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex–including a former toxic waste dump.

Source
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  #107  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:01
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Pretty much yes, don't forget Thatcher said New Labour was her greatest creation. Tory plant? No right wing led by the city and newspapers yes.
She created it by demonstrating to the wider electorate you don't have to have state owned companies and bloated unions to put more money in the average wage packet. And ultimately - that is what people care about. Will I be better of worse off under labour/tory/monster raving loony?

Labour went "new" when they failed to topple Major in 92. If you look at the "map" for 92 you can see just how disillusioned Labour's heartland was with the party - and it was only when they could have their cake and eat it that they returned to voting Labour.

The biggest issue Labour faces in attempting to win a GE is the realization that they'll need to get into bed the SNP - and effectively let the tail wag the dog.
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  #108  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:03
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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And offered more than 93% of the disputed territory back to Arafat, which was rejected.
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  #109  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:32
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

Meh, back on topic. Corbyn also addressed a communist rally on Sunday; I'm not sure he could be any more unelectable.

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  #110  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:36
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Meh, back on topic. Corbyn also addressed a communist rally on Sunday; I'm not sure he could be any more unelectable.

Yeah, but communists aren't terrorists, are they?


They're just lovely, earnest young chaps in berets and camouflaged trousers.
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  #111  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:41
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Meh, back on topic. Corbyn also addressed a communist rally on Sunday; I'm not sure he could be any more unelectable.

Don't you ever get tired of posting misleading rubbish and deliberate distortion? It was a Mayday rally (similar to those taking place around the world) where a fringe minority chose to show up with their communist banners, certainly not a crime and not something Corbyn could do anything about.

However to call nurses, teachers, Jnr Doctors, Union members, the unemployed etc.. 'communists' is pretty low even by your standards.
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  #112  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:41
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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They're just lovely, earnest young chaps in berets and camouflaged trousers.
I was thinking about this and as you go left you head through socialism, to communism and then anarchy.

To think - the level of practice, order and obedience to achieve this is one step from anarchy

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  #113  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:52
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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However to call nurses, teachers, Jnr Doctors, Union members, the unemployed etc.. 'communists' is pretty low even by your standards.
Don't you know that anyone who isn't born rich or at least works at a bank is a communist?
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  #114  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:55
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Don't you ever get tired of posting misleading rubbish and deliberate distortion? It was a Mayday rally (similar to those taking place around the world) where a fringe minority chose to show up with their communist banners, certainly not a crime and not something Corbyn could do anything about.

However to call nurses, teachers, Jnr Doctors, Union members, the unemployed etc.. 'communists' is pretty low even by your standards.
A leader with any intention of holding office one day would have kept well away. Guilty by association and all that, though we all know he's a red anyway.

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Old 03.05.2016, 14:56
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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However to call nurses, teachers, Jnr Doctors, Union members, the unemployed etc.. 'communists' is pretty low even by your standards.
They might not be members of the Communist Party, but anyone who attends a May Day rally is certainly a "fellow traveller".


Whatever Mr Corbyn's reasons for being there, those pictures certainly won't help his popularity with most ordinary British voters, especially older ones with long memories.
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  #116  
Old 03.05.2016, 14:58
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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I'd put money on most of those kids growing up to become insurance salesmen and investment bankers.


That's certainly what happened with most of the frothy-mouthed SWP members I knew at university.


Wankers, the lot of them.


(cue fond memories of being lectured on the Student Union steps by some plummy voiced twat on how I was a "class traitor" - he'd clocked my Yam Yam accent and leapt to the conclusion that I was working class. I put him right. He never bothered me again. Nor did any of his friends, funnily enough... )
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  #117  
Old 03.05.2016, 15:07
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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I'd put money on most of those kids growing up to become insurance salesmen and investment bankers.

That's certainly what happened with most of the frothy-mouthed SWP members I knew at university.
Be careful what you wish for DB, nowadays Uni Students don't seem to believe in anything other than climbing the greasy pole. Saddled with massive loan payments, extortionate rent, lack of jobs etc.. I can't really blame them?
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  #118  
Old 03.05.2016, 15:13
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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I'd put money on most of those kids growing up to become insurance salesmen and investment bankers.


That's certainly what happened with most of the frothy-mouthed SWP members I knew at university.


Wankers, the lot of them.


(cue fond memories of being lectured on the Student Union steps by some plummy voiced twat on how I was a "class traitor" - he'd clocked my Yam Yam accent and leapt to the conclusion that I was working class. I put him right. He never bothered me again. Nor did any of his friends, funnily enough... )
I struggle to see how marching around London idolising Stalin is any more acceptable than marching with jackboots, brown shirts and a swastika.
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  #119  
Old 03.05.2016, 15:14
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Be careful what you wish for DB, nowadays Uni Students don't seem to believe in anything other than climbing the greasy pole. Saddled with massive loan payments, extortionate rent, lack of jobs etc.. I can't really blame them?
Seems the NUS hasn't changed much, just gotten worse with the election of an anti-semitic Muslim at their head (what a fscking surprise). Red-Green, sprouting everywhere...
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Old 03.05.2016, 15:22
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Re: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to denounce terrorist 'friends' Hamas and Hezbollah

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Don't you ever get tired of posting misleading rubbish and deliberate distortion? It was a Mayday rally (similar to those taking place around the world) where a fringe minority chose to show up with their communist banners, certainly not a crime and not something Corbyn could do anything about.

However to call nurses, teachers, Jnr Doctors, Union members, the unemployed etc.. 'communists' is pretty low even by your standards.
Try an turn up at a Labour rally waving a Nazi flag and show how long they'll let you wave it.

Try the same with a communist flag.

See the difference?
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