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  #461  
Old 12.12.2016, 12:13
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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It's the only target to bring peace to the region. However I agree, it will never happen.
then why insist on a war which will not be successful. Continue to have deaths on both sides.

This nationalist approach is the poison we have from 19th and early 20th century. But today we live in a global world.

The Kurds need to decide which is more important to have flag, independent state or to live under equal terms as the Turks (cannot comment on arabs) in Turkey.

Second I think is more achievable than the first. Albeit still not easy.
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  #462  
Old 12.12.2016, 12:28
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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then why insist on a war which will not be successful. Continue to have deaths on both sides.

This nationalist approach is the poison we have from 19th and early 20th century. But today we live in a global world.

The Kurds need to decide which is more important to have flag, independent state or to live under equal terms as the Turks (cannot comment on arabs) in Turkey.

Second I think is more achievable than the first. Albeit still not easy.
Independent state? but where exactly.. for example which cities in Turkey would that state be established on? If you say where the majority of Kurds are, how far back in time do you go to find out who has been living there? Obviously some areas are where there used to be Armenians before the deportations.

And if that new state is indeed founded somehow somewhere, what do you do with the Kurds who live elsewhere in Turkey? Send them to the new state? They have their life there.

Things would definitely not be easy for all concerned, Turks, Kurds remaining, Kurds leaving
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  #463  
Old 12.12.2016, 12:30
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Marton, what you are saying doesnt address my point actually.

Nevertheless, this is not 90s anymore. The current AKP government is an enemy of not only Kurds but for all opposition. If theKurds want to have more democratic lives, freedom of speech ,etc. then thats what the Turks want too but those rights will not be given only to part of the population it needs to be for all. This is where the Kurdish political parties fail. They want rights only for them and not for all.

However, if the Kurds want an independent state or Federalism; thats a different topic.

I believe the biggest mistake the Kurds did was to lose the sympathy of the Turks. They failed to address all their demands to the various governments but not to the people. Without the public sympathy and support I do not think any solution would ever be implemented. and when the terrorist attacks continue, such support will never come.
"This is where the Kurdish political parties fail. " The HDP was described by its founding chairpersons as a party that aims to eliminate the exploitation of labour and to fundamentally re-establish a democracy in which honourable and humanitarian individuals can live together as equal citizens.

It was further described as a party aiming to bring about fundamental change to the existing Capitalist system though uniting a wide range of left-wing opposition movements.

The party has a 50% quota for women and a 10% quota for the LGBT community when fielding candidates.

Source
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  #464  
Old 12.12.2016, 12:35
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

HDP had their big chance of becoming a mainstream party with the June 2015 elections when they also got some votes from the liberal Turks but they blew it by following PKK's line.. now they are just the political wing of PKK
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  #465  
Old 12.12.2016, 12:42
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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"This is where the Kurdish political parties fail. " The HDP was described by its founding chairpersons as a party that aims to eliminate the exploitation of labour and to fundamentally re-establish a democracy in which honourable and humanitarian individuals can live together as equal citizens.

It was further described as a party aiming to bring about fundamental change to the existing Capitalist system though uniting a wide range of left-wing opposition movements.

The party has a 50% quota for women and a 10% quota for the LGBT community when fielding candidates.

Source
Yes that is what it says but the actions speak otherwise. The day after the June 2015 elections they changed their rhetoric. They couldn't distance themselves from violance.
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  #466  
Old 12.12.2016, 12:43
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Independent state? but where exactly.. for example which cities in Turkey would that state be established on? If you say where the majority of Kurds are, how far back in time do you go to find out who has been living there? Obviously some areas are where there used to be Armenians before the deportations.

And if that new state is indeed founded somehow somewhere, what do you do with the Kurds who live elsewhere in Turkey? Send them to the new state? They have their life there.

Things would definitely not be easy for all concerned, Turks, Kurds remaining, Kurds leaving
Thats just a baseless dream. How many Kurds would want to leave Istanbul? How many Kurdish business man will move their factories to the new state?
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  #467  
Old 12.12.2016, 12:58
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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then why insist on a war which will not be successful. Continue to have deaths on both sides.

This nationalist approach is the poison we have from 19th and early 20th century. But today we live in a global world.

The Kurds need to decide which is more important to have flag, independent state or to live under equal terms as the Turks (cannot comment on arabs) in Turkey.

Second I think is more achievable than the first. Albeit still not easy.
You're completely ignoring the mindset of the region. Tribe and bloodlines come before all else. It's not nationalist to demand your own country when you are repressed on account of your ethnicity in the country you already live in.

This doesn't require a war, it requires sensible people to sit around a table and look at what's best. Unfortunately, this won't happen

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Independent state? but where exactly.. for example which cities in Turkey would that state be established on? If you say where the majority of Kurds are, how far back in time do you go to find out who has been living there? Obviously some areas are where there used to be Armenians before the deportations.
Simple, here.

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  #468  
Old 12.12.2016, 13:07
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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You're completely ignoring the mindset of the region. Tribe and bloodlines come before all else. It's not nationalist to demand your own country when you are repressed on account of your ethnicity in the country you already live in.

This doesn't require a war, it requires sensible people to sit around a table and look at what's best. Unfortunately, this won't happen
[/IMG]
How many of those tribes have their leader in the national assembly,even in the government. Yet, the Kurds say nothing to those so called leader and question why their kids are dying for a state and those leaders do nothing.

The Kurds dream of a free state yet most of them work as slave for the federal land owners. They object everything the state of Turkey does but say nothing to be treated so badly by their own blood.

Even if they get a free state,what is that worth if they dont change the slavery in their region.

also, after 30 years of fighting I dont think you will ever get any sensible people to talk to. I am just said that we are driving another generation into hatred.

As to the map, I sincerely dont know the base of it, where is it from actually?
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  #469  
Old 12.12.2016, 13:09
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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...



Simple, here.

Kurds can only dream about having a piece of Black Sea coast; won't happen this century or next. They have a better chance reaching the sea via Syria

That map still leaves a lot of questions open; what happens to the remaining Kurds
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  #470  
Old 12.12.2016, 13:16
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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As to the map, I sincerely dont know the base of it, where is it from actually?
It comes from a retired US Army officer. It was done 10 years ago but much of it still makes sense today. The argument is basically that the Middle East borders should be redrawn based on bloodlines and ethnicity rather than the lines in the sand after WW1. This would solve much of the tension that has plagued the region ever since.

http://brilliantmaps.com/new-middle-east/
http://armedforcesjournal.com/blood-borders/
http://www.c4gallery.com/map/map.html
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  #471  
Old 12.12.2016, 13:18
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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That map still leaves a lot of questions open; what happens to the remaining Kurds
Same as with the Jews and Israel. They can have the choice to move and live there or carry on making their way in the world as they have been before. No need for population exchanges.
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  #472  
Old 12.12.2016, 13:22
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

Meanwhile
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Turkey’s economy contracted for the first time in seven years during the third quarter, official data showed today, as mounting uncertainties since a failed summer coup crimped domestic demand and devastated key industries such as tourism.

Turkish gross domestic product in July through September shrunk by 1.8% annually, reversing a resilient growth record since its last decline in the third quarter of 2009. Economic growth sunk deeper into negative territory than the 0.4% drop predicted by 10 economists in a Wall Street Journal survey.

The data shows that the economic downturn was driven by a collapse in a leading GDP contributor: private domestic consumption, which tumbled by an annualized 3.2% in the third quarter.
Turkey’s lira extended its losses after the data, sinking as much as 1.5% to 3.5495 a dollar
Source

Erdogan simply now has too many battles too fight; Economy, Presidential ambitions, Gulen, Kurds, ISIS, Syria, Iraq, Corruption.
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  #473  
Old 12.12.2016, 13:23
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Same as with the Jews and Israel. They can have the choice to move and live there or carry on making their way in the world as they have been before. No need for population exchanges.
If only the Turks would allow them to stay.

The Turkey and Iran border was made in 1699, not after the first World War.

You tell me that I ignore the regional facts but accept a map by an American, isn't that a little ironic?

Anyways, it comes back to same questions again. How likely this map will happen? How many people needs to die to make it happen? does it really worth?
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  #474  
Old 12.12.2016, 13:25
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Meanwhile

Source

Erdogan simply now has too many battles too fight; Economy, Presidential ambitions, Gulen, Kurds, ISIS, Syria, Iraq, Corruption.
Erdogan's has always been a single battle; to become untouchable almighty president; Kurds, ISIS, Shariah are all side goals which can be re-iterated or abolished at will depending on coniditions
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  #475  
Old 12.12.2016, 14:22
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Yes that is what it says but the actions speak otherwise. The day after the June 2015 elections they changed their rhetoric. They couldn't distance themselves from violance.
Another 118 HDP politicians arrested today.
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  #476  
Old 12.12.2016, 14:28
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Another 118 HDP politicians arrested today.
Yes, as a state reaction to the last bombing. These events are not isolated incidents. All actions create reactions. In this case, all stupid actions create stupid reactions.

We have two options; either let the things escalate or take a step back and think about a more sustainable solution.

If we take the first road, Erdogan will never leave,people will hate each other even more and the outcome will not be different.
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  #477  
Old 12.12.2016, 14:55
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

speaking of stupid reactions, I think AKP will re-establish the gladio.
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  #478  
Old 12.12.2016, 16:38
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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You tell me that I ignore the regional facts but accept a map by an American, isn't that a little ironic?
"Western doctors shouldn't do research into Ebola because it comes from Africa"

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Anyways, it comes back to same questions again. How likely this map will happen? How many people needs to die to make it happen? does it really worth?
A lot less people would die if the borders did look like this. However it won't happen, because it's the most reasonable, sensible solution to the region. And also because:

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  #479  
Old 12.12.2016, 16:54
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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"Western doctors shouldn't do research into Ebola because it comes from Africa"



A lot less people would die if the borders did look like this. However it won't happen, because it's the most reasonable, sensible solution to the region. And also because:

No what I am saying is the map you show does not take the realities of the region into consideration at all. You defend it only because it fits to your wishes. Then only it is reasonable and sensible for you.

I dont see any reason or sense in creating a blood bath while trying to take land from 4 countries. a land which was never officially yours in the history. Thats just primitive in 21st century.
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Old 12.12.2016, 17:08
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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No what I am saying is the map you show does not take the realities of the region into consideration at all. You defend it only because it fits to your wishes. Then only it is reasonable and sensible for you.

I dont see any reason or sense in creating a blood bath while trying to take land from 4 countries. a land which was never officially yours in the history. Thats just primitive in 21st century.
Read my posts again. I'm not talking about taking land from four countries by force. Palastine was never a country either looking back in history but it doesn't stop people banging on about it.

That map takes exactly the realities of the region into consideration. It was the whole point of it being made.
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