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  #481  
Old 12.12.2016, 17:45
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Read my posts again. I'm not talking about taking land from four countries by force. Palastine was never a country either looking back in history but it doesn't stop people banging on about it.

That map takes exactly the realities of the region into consideration. It was the whole point of it being made.
That is the problem eith that map, countries can not be founded soley based on blood line. How can you even prove the legitamcy of that? If in the future the kurdish population in Ankara increases,should it also join Kurdistan.

That being said, the map you reference also does not take only blood relations in the account, otherwise how can Kurdistan have a shore in the Blacksea.

In short that map is just a product of American political engineering to shape the middle east and we see how that works in Iraq.

Anyways, this discussion will last forever. I really hope that Turkey can reach to a level of development one day that it will treat all of its citizens equally and well.
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  #482  
Old 12.12.2016, 18:21
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

And here is a timely article on how USA is trying to reengineer the middle east and leading a phycological war .
https://www.aei.org/publication/has-...ion-in-turkey/
Isnt it weird all those articles and maps come from USA experts only.

Btw, who was arming YPG in the region again?
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  #483  
Old 12.12.2016, 19:15
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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That is the problem eith that map, countries can not be founded soley based on blood line. How can you even prove the legitamcy of that?
Yes they can, see the former Yugoslavia for details. And then when you're finished look up Pakistan, Bangladesh, Israel, Czech Republic and Slovakia.

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In short that map is just a product of American political engineering to shape the middle east and we see how that works in Iraq.

Anyways, this discussion will last forever. I really hope that Turkey can reach to a level of development one day that it will treat all of its citizens equally and well.
There will never be peace as long as the West assumes that these people share a disposition. They don't. And until this is accepted there will never be peace. That map isn't American political engineering, it's the most rational solution to the problem.
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  #484  
Old 13.12.2016, 08:02
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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There will never be peace as long as the West assumes that these people share a disposition. They don't. And until this is accepted there will never be peace. That map isn't American political engineering, it's the most rational solution to the problem.
That will create more chaos and problems than to solve anything. An ethnic state cutting 3-4 other countries? In this century....I think they're exactly 100 years late... Sorry, they didn't solve their problem in 1920 when it was a much better moment.
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Old 13.12.2016, 08:55
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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That will create more chaos and problems than to solve anything. An ethnic state cutting 3-4 other countries? In this century....I think they're exactly 100 years late... Sorry, they didn't solve their problem in 1920 when it was a much better moment.
I agree, it won't happen. Too many people squabbling over petty tribal disputes and trying to enforce their stone age beliefs on to each other. And then you have a megalomaniac in Ankara who wants to recreate the Ottoman Empire. He even launched attacks on Kurds in northern Syria because he couldn't bare to see them being successful.

This is why the entire region will remain a shithole for eternity.
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  #486  
Old 13.12.2016, 09:39
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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I agree, it won't happen. Too many people squabbling over petty tribal disputes and trying to enforce their stone age beliefs on to each other. And then you have a megalomaniac in Ankara who wants to recreate the Ottoman Empire. He even launched attacks on Kurds in northern Syria because he couldn't bare to see them being successful.

This is why the entire region will remain a shithole for eternity.
Other than the last sentence, I fully agree.

The kurds and the turks of Turkey needs to make an attempt toward unity not separation. Look at Switzerland how they don't like each other but don't hate either. We need to turn the page and look for the ways to live together peacefully,equally and humane. Under Erdogan everybody suffers.
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  #487  
Old 13.12.2016, 13:15
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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I agree, it won't happen. Too many people squabbling over petty tribal disputes and trying to enforce their stone age beliefs on to each other. And then you have a megalomaniac in Ankara who wants to recreate the Ottoman Empire. He even launched attacks on Kurds in northern Syria because he couldn't bare to see them being successful.

This is why the entire region will remain a shithole for eternity.
Hmm, it's a bit hazardous to predict the future so categorically. Lots of problems in the "region" are (relative) poverty induced, once the living standards and education level will grow you'll see a change in people's mentality too. If you can work and earn a decent living you're less likely inclined to care about which nationality your neighbour belongs to or to which god he is praying.
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  #488  
Old 13.12.2016, 13:28
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Independent state? but where exactly.. for example which cities in Turkey would that state be established on? If you say where the majority of Kurds are, how far back in time do you go to find out who has been living there? Obviously some areas are where there used to be Armenians before the deportations.

And if that new state is indeed founded somehow somewhere, what do you do with the Kurds who live elsewhere in Turkey? Send them to the new state? They have their life there.

Things would definitely not be easy for all concerned, Turks, Kurds remaining, Kurds leaving
"which cities in Turkey would that state be established on" Each city could have a referendum; these seem to work well
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  #489  
Old 13.12.2016, 13:32
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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"which cities in Turkey would that state be established on" Each city could have a referendum; these seem to work well
if it ever comes down to referendum, Erdogan can even get Musul and possibly Aleppo Turks are still puzzled how he kept on increasing his voter base after so many years
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  #490  
Old 13.12.2016, 14:00
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Independent state? but where exactly.. for example which cities in Turkey would that state be established on? If you say where the majority of Kurds are, how far back in time do you go to find out who has been living there? Obviously some areas are where there used to be Armenians before the deportations.

And if that new state is indeed founded somehow somewhere, what do you do with the Kurds who live elsewhere in Turkey? Send them to the new state? They have their life there.

Things would definitely not be easy for all concerned, Turks, Kurds remaining, Kurds leaving
Like Israel. Some went, some didn't go. It worked for them, why wouldn't it work for Kurdistan?


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That is the problem eith that map, countries can not be founded soley based on blood line. How can you even prove the legitamcy of that?
Based on what you are saying, Israel has no legitimacy then!
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  #491  
Old 13.12.2016, 14:41
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Like Israel. Some went, some didn't go. It worked for them, why wouldn't it work for Kurdistan?
Seriously? you think the establishment of Israel is a good example and it brought peace to the region.

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Based on what you are saying, Israel has no legitimacy then!
No, read my comment again please. It was referring to the legitimacy of the blood line states and asking how you even prove that.
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Old 13.12.2016, 14:45
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Seriously? you think the establishment of Israel is a good example and it brought peace to the region.



No, read my comment again please. It was referring to the legitimacy of the blood line states and asking how you even prove that.
I didn't say it was a good example.. I'm just saying what everyone seems to think about how it is in israel.

You can't prove it, that's the point. I was agreeing with you.

Turkey won't have peace until there is a Kurdistan, even if not all Kurds want one. Many Kurds are Kurds to the bones without the need of a country. But those are the silent ones. And we can't get mad at those who want a land to call home.
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  #493  
Old 13.12.2016, 15:02
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

I am with greenmount on that one, let's work together to bring the economy,democracy ,human rights and freedom of speech in Turkey to a modern level first. Then, let's ask the question again what the people of Turkey want.

Otherwise, to have a war just to have a piece of land is a primitive objective at best.

The irony in that is most of the Kurds in the south east Turkey does not even own anything but mostly work for the landlords and head of tribes. Yet, they are willing to die for a piece of land which will not be theirs eventually but owned by the tribe heads again.
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Old 13.12.2016, 20:15
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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I am with greenmount on that one, let's work together to bring the economy,democracy ,human rights and freedom of speech in Turkey to a modern level first. Then, let's ask the question again what the people of Turkey want.

Otherwise, to have a war just to have a piece of land is a primitive objective at best.

The irony in that is most of the Kurds in the south east Turkey does not even own anything but mostly work for the landlords and head of tribes. Yet, they are willing to die for a piece of land which will not be theirs eventually but owned by the tribe heads again.
"they are willing to die for a piece of land ....." I assume this only applies to a small minority? The other Kurds die because they happen to live in places that Erdogan bombs or shells?
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Old 13.12.2016, 22:06
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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I am with greenmount on that one, let's work together to bring the economy,democracy ,human rights and freedom of speech in Turkey to a modern level first. Then, let's ask the question again what the people of Turkey want.
This will never happen. It's assuming these people share Western mindset and goals. They don't.

Arabs don't do freedom of speech, human rights, equal rights or democracy. Turkey are turning their back on these things too.

There will never be peace in the region. But some peace is better than no peace. And Nil is right, this can only happen if Kurdistan is created.
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  #496  
Old 13.12.2016, 22:19
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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if it ever comes down to referendum, Erdogan can even get Musul and possibly Aleppo Turks are still puzzled how he kept on increasing his voter base after so many years
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It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide! Quote: Josef Stalin
70 years later; fundamentals do not change
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Old 13.12.2016, 22:59
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

EU officially stated today they will freeze Turkey's EU entry discussions
Source (German language)

Pity but Erdogan's actions after the "coup" attempt simply crossed too many red lines
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Old 13.12.2016, 23:43
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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EU officially stated today they will freeze Turkey's EU entry discussions
Source (German language)

Pity but Erdogan's actions after the "coup" attempt simply crossed too many red lines
I don't think Erdogan wants to join the EU .... or ever did.
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Old 14.12.2016, 07:15
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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I don't think Erdogan wants to join the EU .... or ever did.
he clearly stated in the past that democracy was just a means to the end.
similarly eu accession talks were the means to get the secular base/military out of his path.

today a Turkish columnist in Hurriyet is arguing that there is a certain group with close links to Erdogan who wants to 1) bring death penalty, 2) derail EU accession talks indirectly thru 1) but on EU's initiation, 3) let the economy suffer so that pro western companies/investors would be forced to pull out leaving their place to pro AKP companies and 4) get the presidency after which they will focus on the crucial issues of Kurds, pkk, economy and get them solved during presidency hence gaining further credibility.
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Old 14.12.2016, 07:47
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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I don't think Erdogan wants to join the EU .... or ever did.
He's an Ottoman, and never had any interest in joining the EU.
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