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View Poll Results: What should the Swiss government do in your opinion?
They should go ahead with introducing permit applications and quotas for EEA citizens 31 34.83%
They should introduce very high quotas for EEA nationals that in practice won't have any impact 15 16.85%
They should call for a new referendum on the EU-Swiss relationsip as a whole 19 21.35%
They should ignore 2014's referendum and not do anything 8 8.99%
I don't care, I got my C-permit or citizenship 16 17.98%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 22.07.2016, 18:31
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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I would have more respect for Switzerland if they chose Switzerland over the proposition to sell itself out.
Phew, now that will sure make everyone happy and well-fed.
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  #42  
Old 22.07.2016, 18:33
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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I cant think of a single example in history of a country gaining in the long term by choosing to increase its social and economic isolation.

With the bilaterals ending, it will be interesting to see how one of the most advanced economies reacts.

This is not Switzerland choosing isolation. This is EU threatening Switzerland with isolation. What the Swiss voted for was better management of its population. What the EU insists on is no control whatsoever even to the detriment of Switzerland.

Not at all a positive nor constructive arrangement. If I had a relationship like that, I'd tell them to screw off.
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  #43  
Old 22.07.2016, 18:35
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Phew, now that will sure make everyone happy and well-fed.
What I'm hearing from you all is the same Project Fear from Brexit. It failed to convince then, and I hope it fails to convince again.
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  #44  
Old 22.07.2016, 18:52
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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What I'm hearing from you all is the same Project Fear from Brexit. It failed to convince then, and I hope it fails to convince again.
Mmm, I didn't post an opinion on Brexit until after the vote.

Just the same old: nothing but unfounded claims and warm air from you.
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  #45  
Old 22.07.2016, 19:49
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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The average Joe might not see it and prefers to bitch about immigrants, but cancelling the bilaterale will affect everyone... the MNCs are already complaining that they cannot get as many non EU specialists into the country as they need.
What you say is a contradiction. The reason we can't get those specialists anymore is because the EU-members get all the permits.

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If CH leaves the bilaterales do I predict the economy to shrink by 5-10 percent (probably less in Tom's village... but nobody cares about Ticino anyway...)
And we could even afford that if we had to, ain't that annoying

I do care about Ticino, it's a very important part of Switzerland. The Swiss-Germans tend to forget that it's the diversity that makes us who we are, funny that the "Gastarbeiter" fall into the same trap in this area.
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  #46  
Old 22.07.2016, 20:00
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Cancelling bilateral trade agreements? CH to EU export volume is X%?

Last edited by Serk; 22.07.2016 at 20:14.
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  #47  
Old 22.07.2016, 20:13
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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What you say is a contradiction. The reason we can't get those specialists anymore is because the EU-members get all the permits.
Trev is right.

Non-EU/EFTA immigration is still limited. As per 2015 the number of L- and B-permits was reduced to the numbers that are valid for this year as well; 2500 B and 4000 L permits.

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And we could even afford that if we had to, ain't that annoying
If our export and services balance with the EU were to return to pre-Bilateral level the net cost would be 50-60bln CHF, close to 10% of GDP.
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  #48  
Old 22.07.2016, 20:17
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Cancelling bilateral trade agreements? �� CH to EU export volume is 79%.
Time to change something then, huh? Basic business knowledge is never to stand only/mainly on one .

I don't think the bilateral trade should just be cancelled. But they're extremly one-sided, no? We may sell them our goods (which they obviously want as I doubt they only buy them because they wanna pamper us) and we get all the weird rules and regulations and even pay big money for it all? The middle way is somewhere else, time to walk it.

why did you change your post from 79% to X?

Last edited by curley; 22.07.2016 at 20:18. Reason: addition/question
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  #49  
Old 22.07.2016, 20:24
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Trev is right.

Non-EU/EFTA immigration is still limited. As per 2015 the number of L- and B-permits was reduced to the numbers that are valid for this year as well; 2500 B and 4000 L permits.


If our export and services balance with the EU were to return to pre-Bilateral level the net cost would be 50-60bln CHF, close to 10% of GDP.
Ofcourse it is - that's what I said - and it will get worse as it's the only way the governement can stop immigration. And it's not fair to the non-EU. But is Germany gonna hand over Bavaria to us so we can house them all (we're still okay now, I know). Remember we're neutral, we can not just go and acquire new territory.
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  #50  
Old 22.07.2016, 20:51
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Time to change something then, huh? Basic business knowledge is never to stand only/mainly on one .

I don't think the bilateral trade should just be cancelled. But they're extremly one-sided, no? We may sell them our goods (which they obviously want as I doubt they only buy them because they wanna pamper us) and we get all the weird rules and regulations and even pay big money for it all? The middle way is somewhere else, time to walk it.

why did you change your post from 79% to X?
The figure was raw/unprocessed, the official 60% btw
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  #51  
Old 22.07.2016, 20:52
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Has there ever been a study of how much infrastructure investment Switzerland will need to make to accommodate the current trajectory of its population growth?

I suppose without a quota, population growth can only be a guessed. I wonder how many more road lanes and train tracks need to be built at which level of population.
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  #52  
Old 22.07.2016, 21:02
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Time to change something then, huh? Basic business knowledge is never to stand only/mainly on one .

I don't think the bilateral trade should just be cancelled. But they're extremly one-sided, no? We may sell them our goods (which they obviously want as I doubt they only buy them because they wanna pamper us) and we get all the weird rules and regulations and even pay big money for it all? The middle way is somewhere else, time to walk it.

why did you change your post from 79% to X?
It precisely because we accept the rules that they buy our stuff! Our goods and services can be used in public and private contracts through the EU and Swiss firms are entitled to participate in EU public tenders on the same basis as EU firms. We did not accept the bilateral ties for the fun of it! We're not just selling chocolate bars!
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  #53  
Old 22.07.2016, 21:21
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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This is not Switzerland choosing isolation. This is EU threatening Switzerland with isolation. What the Swiss voted for was better management of its population. What the EU insists on is no control whatsoever even to the detriment of Switzerland.
Typical kindergarten behavior! Switzerland should be able to act in it's own best interests, but the EU should not!

In the real world everyone acts in their own best interests and it's up to us Swiss to decide if we want to play ball or not. But we must accept the consequences of our actions. We voted against the bilateral all by ourselves, no one forced us to do it and it is up to us to sort it out because we, not the EU, are the ones that want to break the agreement!
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  #54  
Old 22.07.2016, 21:34
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

In the real world, people drop stupid business arrangements. Especially after you realise you've been baited and switched.
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  #55  
Old 22.07.2016, 22:48
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Has there ever been a study of how much infrastructure investment Switzerland will need to make to accommodate the current trajectory of its population growth?

I suppose without a quota, population growth can only be a guessed. I wonder how many more road lanes and train tracks need to be built at which level of population.
None, we need the land for houses.
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  #56  
Old 23.07.2016, 00:10
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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nobody cares about Ticino anyway...)
The LEGA does.

Personally, I don't care about the northern bits.

Tom
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  #57  
Old 23.07.2016, 03:00
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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In the real world, people drop stupid business arrangements. Especially after you realise you've been baited and switched.
Well obviously very few businesses agree with you, but that should not be in the lest surprising.
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  #58  
Old 24.07.2016, 13:45
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Looks like there will be a new referendum.

http://www.marketplus.ch/news/switze...agreement.html
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  #59  
Old 24.07.2016, 13:59
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Looks like there will be a new referendum.

http://www.marketplus.ch/news/switze...agreement.html
Won't happen before they have to bring in the law. First they need the requisite numbers to call for a referndum, then the wording has to be worked out, then it has to be scheduled for a vote. Do you really think the Swiss can get all that done before Feb next year?
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  #60  
Old 24.07.2016, 14:47
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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I don't understand why you are telling this to me?
I have no love for Berlin (and I am moving out on the 31st of July).
I only came here because it was good for my career to get some experience from these cool start-ups, but one day I will move back to Switzerland and stay there forever.

Basically to Berlin I am what those arrogant foreigners who refuse to learn a local language are to Switzerland. Only here for the monies.
I'm genuinely curious about your views on integration and immigration. On the one hand, you describe Switzerland as a "a place full of arrogant Europeans who don't respect the country that is hosting them". Given your views on EU migrants living in Switzerland I found it a little amusing that you now lived in Berlin. I've been to Berlin and would imagine you find the situation there equally or more annoying. A curious choice, indeed. That's why I replied to your message. The most interesting part is that you now out yourself as one of those "arrogant foreigners" that work in the Berlin start-up scene for the money. Do you see the dichotomy here?

I have a few questions. Do you think Switzerland should adopt a different strategy from Germany regarding inwards EU migration and integration? If so, could you explain your reasoning? For example, is Berlin a special case with a society completely different from, say, Zurich? Alternatively, would you like Germany to also impose stricter conditions on inward EU migration - conditions that might have made your limited stay in Berlin difficult to arrange or even impossible? For example, I would imagine your start-up has English as the working language. Would you like laws that prevent that from happening? Should potential workers at your start-up have to pass an exam in German or even in the local dialect? What kind of legal benchmarks could exist to predict and enforce "integration" and how might they be applied? You are obviously highly self-aware so I'm also wondering about your emotional response to considering yourself as one of those "arrogant foreigners"? For example, I've worked for some employers in the past where I felt morally compromised but kept on taking the cash anyway. It didn't make me feel good at all. Does your stay in Berlin affect you in a similar way?

I'm genuinely curious about your outlook. There is a point to be made here but so far I have failed to fully understand it.

Cheers,

Terry
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