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View Poll Results: What should the Swiss government do in your opinion?
They should go ahead with introducing permit applications and quotas for EEA citizens 31 34.83%
They should introduce very high quotas for EEA nationals that in practice won't have any impact 15 16.85%
They should call for a new referendum on the EU-Swiss relationsip as a whole 19 21.35%
They should ignore 2014's referendum and not do anything 8 8.99%
I don't care, I got my C-permit or citizenship 16 17.98%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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  #141  
Old 25.12.2017, 17:00
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

New referendum coming up?

https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/91998...-l-europe.html
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  #142  
Old 25.12.2017, 17:21
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Great, so we can vote no again, and again, and again, as these poilticians are all clearly mentally disabled!

Screw the EU!

Tom
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  #143  
Old 25.12.2017, 17:48
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Great, so we can vote no again, and again, and again, as these poilticians are all clearly mentally disabled!

Screw the EU!

Tom
Relax. We just vote no and no again ..... two sides can play this game

<<An die Arbeit muss der neue Aussenminister Cassis, der bisher durch Abwesenheit und unbedarfte Äusserungen glänzte>> I read here. What's up with the guy?!?
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  #144  
Old 25.12.2017, 17:49
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Great, so we can vote no again, and again, and again, as these poilticians are all clearly mentally disabled!

Screw the EU!

Tom
With luck we can achieve the same ex-EU success as Brexit
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  #145  
Old 25.12.2017, 17:54
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Swiss people should hurry up and join the EU fast!

Switzerland is already a mini-EU with people of Germany, France and Italy.

It'll be a perfect member of EU otherwise it'll slide to the side of UK, Russia, China.
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  #146  
Old 25.12.2017, 18:04
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Swiss people should hurry up and join the EU fast!

Switzerland is already a mini-EU with people of Germany, France and Italy.

It'll be a perfect member of EU otherwise it'll slide to the side of UK, Russia, China.
Now I know why you got all these red pebbles
Don't worry, I never hand out any of those

the scare technique . You forgot to add "lieber tot als rot" an other old one.

<<It'll be a perfect member of EU>> now that IS scary
Don't worry about China and Russia, they don't want us, we argue too much
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  #147  
Old 25.12.2017, 23:33
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

What will the *new* question be?
Is it still being discussed?
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  #148  
Old 26.12.2017, 00:07
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Yes, we all know YOU would

People here are shaken by what is happening with UK and Brexit. The UDC/SVP have been so soundly beaten in Valais and in Neuchâtel last week-end - totally destroyed. Great news.

But the title is t'other way round - should the EU bend the knees to little Switzerland? The answer is a clear NO- same for the UK. BoJo has already admited that they cannot limit freedom of movement for many years. Not because of EU retaliation- but because the NHS is losing EU key staff in droves with no-one applying to replace them, with the same happening in many industries, including agriculture. Refusing to make a quick decision about the rights of EU citizens already in UK being able to stay- and instead using them as bargaining chips- has made EU people in UK insecure, unwelcomed and unappreciated- what with the £ having plumetted in last few years (many try to save as much as poss to send back home to families or to be able to buy education or a little house back home) - just not attractive any more.
Actually low GBP and lower immigration is good for those not in the middle class. Less competition for jobs, easier to compete with imports, less competition for real estate. The right is B.S. except for the top guys, everybody else is money driven (again, the less of these the better for those who voted for brexit).
But, anyway, the immigration from other, non EU countries, still continues.
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  #149  
Old 26.12.2017, 00:21
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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But, anyway, the immigration from other, non EU countries, still continues.
Yes, but they can't stop that.
Looking these days at employees in low skilled jobs in diverse places - obviously work permits for non-EU are not an issue, otherwise one can't explain the phenomenon..Hypocrisy at its best, but so be it.
Why do we still discuss this subject anyway.
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  #150  
Old 26.12.2017, 00:31
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Actually low GBP and lower immigration is good for those not in the middle class. Less competition for jobs, easier to compete with imports, less competition for real estate. The right is B.S. except for the top guys, everybody else is money driven (again, the less of these the better for those who voted for brexit).
But, anyway, the immigration from other, non EU countries, still continues.
Funny how people always talk about immigration when they talk about EU.
Immigration / free movement of people is the least problem with EU. In fact, it is no problem at all, it is as it always was here: You got a job? Welcome. You don't? Sorry mate.
We have always dealt with immigration - in fact, try to keep up with us where percentage of foreigners is concerned. And the foreigners here are not sitting on the street starving!!
We have 24.9% foreigners living here. With or without EU - in fact, less people came in the past years over the past few years - so forget EU and Schengen.

EU is about politics, manipulation, regulation, observation and suppression of people. NOT INTERESTED, okay?


And if their system is so great, why do they want Switzerland - a non-member - to pay a billion for the Eastern-Europeans?
Anyway, WTF are they gonna do when we are part of them, f***ed like them and can no longer be milked?
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  #151  
Old 26.12.2017, 09:06
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Funny how people always talk about immigration when they talk about EU.
Immigration / free movement of people is the least problem with EU. In fact, it is no problem at all, it is as it always was here: You got a job? Welcome. You don't? Sorry mate.
We have always dealt with immigration - in fact, try to keep up with us where percentage of foreigners is concerned. And the foreigners here are not sitting on the street starving!!
We have 24.9% foreigners living here. With or without EU - in fact, less people came in the past years over the past few years - so forget EU and Schengen.

EU is about politics, manipulation, regulation, observation and suppression of people. NOT INTERESTED, okay?


And if their system is so great, why do they want Switzerland - a non-member - to pay a billion for the Eastern-Europeans?
Anyway, WTF are they gonna do when we are part of them, f***ed like them and can no longer be milked?
Funny, to me it seems like we don't talk about immigration as we really should, see Odile's older post who seems to have a more informed and different opinion, albeit re. Uk.. .

But what exactly will you, curley, pay and to whom? Those money EU is asking for is what other Western countries pay too, and they payed for a few good decades to Southern European countries also. They still do, rumours say. They are meant to compensate for Switzerland's access to a very large market, if you don't believe me check the trade balance between CH and different countries for further references and see in whose' favour inclines.. Aren't they going back to the Swiss banks through multiple businesses CH is doing in the whole EU? As a basically equal, if not more equal so to speak - member? The same discussion is still very hot in the UK and nobody seems to understand why EU will toughen up their approach. As in - you can't have your cake and eat it. People need to finally come to terms to that.

But back to our diatribe, what exactly willyou, curley, personally pay and to whom? I don't ask myself where my husband's taxes go, or whom will benefit from his work in top high-tech projects in a Swiss company. I know for a fact that we wouldn't be here if we didn't contribute. Same goes for bigger players. Those money EU is asking from CH is basically what every member country is required to pay in order to be part of the club, for the advantages mentioned before. If it wasn't profitable for the rich (and I mean big tax payers here) EU didn't exist. Anyway, some of them will go into structural funds which were payed for a few good decades to Southern European countries too, as mentioned earlier. Lots of money still go there, if less in structural funds more in agricultural aids for instance and nobody is flinging their wings in hot air isn't it...or because of Africa aids or other funds for the developing countries across the globe.

Just so you know, not that I believe you'd care, but for the sake of clarity - I don't want CH to become a EU member either, they don't need that. My main reason would be losing its (political) independency - a small country works enormously through their whole history to even achieve some things a few other countries take for granted. They can continue to have agreements like Norway for instance. Or whatever, but let's not transform this discussion into something debated from a single angle.


I'll leave it at that, this discussion is repeating itself over and over on this forum and people will never grab any opinion different than their own.

Last edited by greenmount; 26.12.2017 at 09:20.
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  #152  
Old 26.12.2017, 09:20
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Funny how people always talk about immigration when they talk about EU.
Immigration / free movement of people is the least problem with EU. In fact, it is no problem at all, it is as it always was here: You got a job? Welcome. You don't? Sorry mate.
Immigration and globalization disproportionately and negatively impacts the lowest earners. So they rebelled in UK; doesn't mean brexit is a net gain for them, but globalization and immigration are a net loss.
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  #153  
Old 26.12.2017, 10:29
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Funny, to me it seems like we don't talk about immigration as we really should, see Odile's older post who seems to have a more informed and different opinion, albeit re. Uk.. .


But what exactly will you, curley, pay and to whom? Those money EU is asking for is what other Western countries pay too, EU-members and they payed for a few good decades to Southern European countries also. They still do, rumours say. They are meant to compensate for Switzerland's access to a very large market, LOL, that used to be illegal when don in Rusiia, Africa etc. ... if you don't believe me check the trade balance between CH and different countries for further references and see in whose' favour inclines.. Aren't they going back to the Swiss banks through multiple businesses CH is doing in the whole EU? So we basically payed the goods/services we sold to the EU ourselves? LOL As a basically equal, if not more equal so to speak - member? we are not a member, we are not a member, we are not a me.. The same discussion is still very hot in the UK and nobody seems to understand why EU will toughen up their approach. As in - you can't have your cake and eat it. People need to finally come to terms to that.
It's not possible to have the same discussion in GB as in CH as GB is a member who wants to ... well might want to ... oh absolutely wants to .... on the other hand might ..... we didn't mean .... had the others been informed properly (I like that one) .... we're gonna let the people decide ...... but if they give the wrong answer it's only advisory the typical British inconsistence .... leave

But back to our diatribe, what exactly willyou, curley, personally pay and to whom? an other thing people don't get about direct democracy: It's not about "my frank" it's about the politics mentioned above I don't ask myself where my husband's taxe go, LOL or whom will benefit from his work in top high-tech projects in a Swiss company. I know for a fact that we wouldn't be here if we didn't contribute. Same goes for bigger players. Those money EU is asking from CH is basically what every member country is required to pay in order to be part of the club,we're not a member, we don't want to be part of the club .... my tongue is falling off ... for the advantages mentioned before. If it wasn't profitable for the rich (and I mean big tax payers here) EU didn't exist. Aha Anyway, some of them will go into structural funds which were payed for a few good decades to Southern European countries too, as mentioned earlier. Lots of money still go there, if less in structural funds more in agricultural aids for instance and nobody is flinging their wings in hot air isn't it...or because of Africa aids or other funds for the developing countries across the globe. You totally lost me. Comparing EU-members with Africa?

Just so you know, not that I believe you'd care, but for the sake of clarity - I don't want CH to become a EU member either, they don't need that. My main reason would be losing its (political) independency - a small country works enormously through their whole history to even achieve some things a few other countries take for granted. Huh? They can continue to have agreements like Norway for instance. Or whatever, but let's not transform this discussion into something debated from a single angle. you did read the thread title, yes?


I'll leave it at that, this discussion is repeating itself over and over on this forum and people will never grab any opinion different than their own.
That was a weird post of yours. But you folks keep talking about Brexit when the subject is Switzerland and compare apples with oranges .... while we'll just go on dealing with the situation.

Actually, it crossed my mind this morning that if I were old enough the EU behaviour would remind me of the "times of Wilhelm Tell" So the interesting bit to observe will be, did we maintain the spirit
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  #154  
Old 26.12.2017, 10:38
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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That was a weird post of yours. But you folks keep talking about Brexit when the subject is Switzerland and compare apples with oranges .... while we'll just go on dealing with the situation.

Actually, it crossed my mind this morning that if I were old enough the EU behaviour would remind me of the "times of Wilhelm Tell" So the interesting bit to observe will be, did we maintain the spirit
My post wasn't about Brexit. My post was just a reply to a weird post of yours where you seem to not understand why CH is asked to pay money for those pesky Eastern European countries. CH, although not a member, benefits from the same advantages as if it were a full EU member, and same things are required money wise, meaning to...contribute. And...we're back to where the discussion began thus completing the never ending circle of EF discussions on EU and similar topics.
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  #155  
Old 26.12.2017, 10:46
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Actually low GBP and lower immigration is good for those not in the middle class.
On the contrary, over the next ten to fifteen years people on low or fixed incomes will take the biggest hit right across the boards. The weak pound has already started to cause a cost of living increase that is not matched by wage increases. An economic contraction in the early years after BREXIT will see a fall off in tax revenues resulting in a reduction in social services and the ancillary type of jobs that lower income people rely on. Furthermore competing as a third country will see further pressure on wage levels impacting the jobs that remain. There is no a single example in economic history where people on lower incomes did not take the biggest hit. There is absolutely nothing to suggest it will be any different this time.

The only question is how will that voter backlash develop, what kind of government it will deliver up and will that government hinder the economic recovery or not.
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  #156  
Old 26.12.2017, 10:55
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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And if their system is so great, why do they want Switzerland - a non-member - to pay a billion for the Eastern-Europeans?
You have to pay for the right of Swiss companies to exploit Eastern Europe like German, Dutch and Danish companies do.

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Anyway, WTF are they gonna do when we are part of them, f***ed like them and can no longer be milked?
You should get out of your High Swiss Castle from time to time and see that not all of the EU is f***ed, there are several countries with great strong economies.
Are you afraid that Switzerland would end up like Greece or Bulgaria?
I believe Switzerland would end up like Austria or the Netherlands.


Anyway, from my own personal point of view, the reasons why we want to force Switzerland to decide either a clear YES (in the EEA) or a clear NO (no Bilaterals, no nothing) are 2:

1. Too much complexity for such a small market. After a decision has been made in Brussels, there begins the new phase of trying to convince the Swiss to adopt it. Every other member of the EU or the EEA has to adopt it sooner or later, or face fines from the Commission.
The EEA allows for some exceptions, for example Norway and Iceland have exceptions on fisheries. Likewise, Switzerland could negotiate certain exceptions that would be enshrined in its accession treaty, but for everything else it would be obliged to apply EU decisions as they arrive (fax democracy).

2. Although the Bilaterals have worked fine for both sides, there is a belief that they have worked better for Switzerland. Therefore we have created a win-win situation where one party wins much more than the other. And on top of that it gets to tell the other party that it is better and smarter for having struck this deal. Which makes party B willing to sacrifice its relatively small gain from the Bilaterals hoping to strike an even better deal, or at least, get to tell party A "I told you so" when it takes bigger damages from the collapse of the deal.
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Old 26.12.2017, 11:03
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Immigration and globalization disproportionately and negatively impacts the lowest earners. So they rebelled in UK; doesn't mean brexit is a net gain for them, but globalization and immigration are a net loss.
Do you have a source for your claims? It is a regular theme for populists but do the facts support it?

Here is a report from the London School of Economics showing the benefits of immigration.

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the areas of the UK with large increases in EU immigration did not suffer greater falls in the jobs and pay of UK-born workers.
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Changes in wages and joblessness for less educated UK born workers show little correlation with changes in EU immigration.
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EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and the use of public services.
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The refugee crisis has nothing to do with EU membership.
Refugees admitted to Germany have no right to live in the UK.
The UK is not in the Schengen passport-free travel agreement so there are border checks on migrants.
There have been a number of studies over the years with the same conclusions.
An Analysis of the Impacts of Migration by the UK Migration Advisory Committee shows no negative impact on UK born by EU immigration but there is a negative impact by non EU immigrants.

So ironically people who voted Brexit to decrease the EU immigrants have actually made their situation worse assuming the result is more non-EU immigrants!
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Old 26.12.2017, 11:04
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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My post wasn't about Brexit. My post was just a reply to a weird post of yours where you seem to not understand why CH is asked to pay money for those pesky Eastern European countries. CH, although not a member, benefits from the same advantages as if it were a full EU member, and same things are required money wise, meaning to...contribute. And...we're back to where the discussion began thus completing the never ending circle of EF discussions on EU and similar topics.
Pesky? Putting words into my mouth?

Interesting how you picked one single sentence from that post of mine - the least important one. Taking it personally?
What more could I do than put what was important in that one in blue?

<<And...we're back to where the discussion began thus completing the never ending circle of EF discussions on EU and similar topics.>>
ROFL, that's how discussions are. It ends when Switzerland becomes a member (Lord help us ) or has an acceptable, fair neighborhood agreement.
Trouble is, we're - mainly - arguing with Germans here, so yes, I will probably not live to see a result.

Anyway - as to the thread title - I already linked the info that this free movement thingy with EU has not affected us really (never mind Blocher's shouts) as in the past years even less people moved in than before.
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Old 26.12.2017, 11:05
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Again, how is Brexit relevant?
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Old 26.12.2017, 11:16
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Again, how is Brexit relevant?
Because Brexit is a living and only example of what happens to a country that cuts its links to the EU.
No doubt it will be a huge success
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