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Old 18.10.2016, 15:35
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The battle for Mosul

Why dont the Americans send in ground troops and artillery to help take Mosul. They caused this trouble so why don't they take more resposibilty for it. Or has it got something to do with the elections. They dont want to rock the boat!

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Old 18.10.2016, 15:44
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Re: The battle for Mosul

Who are the Amercans?
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Old 18.10.2016, 15:46
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Re: The battle for Mosul

the Government
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Old 18.10.2016, 15:54
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Re: The battle for Mosul

I don't really get the logic. How can somebody in one sentence blame all the mess on somebody and ask that party to actually come backand "fix" it? It feels that US can ever do anything right. How convenient. What makes us think they are not doing anything for Mosul, already, anyways.

Or, I missed the trollishness of this thread completely.
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:00
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Re: The battle for Mosul

The US left a vaccuum there and in came IS .
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I don't really get the logic. How can somebody in one sentence blame all the mess on somebody and ask that party to actually come backand "fix" it? It feels that US can ever do anything right. How convenient. What makes us think they are not doing anything for Mosul, already, anyways.

Or, I missed the trollishness of this thread completely.
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:02
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Re: The battle for Mosul

I don't understand what all the fuss is about - and why there is military action. The wine isn't even that good.
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:06
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Re: The battle for Mosul

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-america-13913

US probably didn't deliberately create the IS in a direct or deliberate way, but its actions created the environment that led to the formation of the ISIS/Daesh. Daesh was an organization that evolved in Camp Bucca in Iraq. This abusive prison was itself set up after the huge scandals at the much more abusive Abu Ghraib. [How the Islamic State evolved in an American prison]. Such prisons brought borderline psychopaths together with radical religious nuts to produce a deadly combo.

On a broader note, Americans are focusing too much on "destroying evil" rather than thinking what comes after. Not long ago they said tyrants like Gaddafi and Saddam are the problem. Those "evils" were done with. Then they said it was Al Qaeda that is the world's biggest threat. That is mostly gone out of vogue now. Now, it is ISIS. Sooner or later they will win the ISIS, in the process creating the next evil to fight the next round. Like teenagers' fads we keep always chasing the hottest terrorist fads of that day. This is the act that helps creating more violent groups.

Now, the US and Russia are fighting the ISIS together trying to defend the stupid Sykes–Picot Agreement of a century ago, providing much more credence to the ISIS stupid assertion that whole world fights Islam. While the ISIS would be destroyed with the combined weight of the superpowers, its assertion would not die. Like lightning rods, each of these bombs on civilians and abuses would acts as radicalizing agents producing more and more potent terrorist groups. You can destroy a group and its habitats. Not an idea.

US has tried years of meddling in Middle East and that has not worked. It is time for it to try leaving the region to chaos. Vietnam didn't become a basketcase after the Americans left it in chaos. Eventually the various forces fighting there made peace among themselves. Gandhi once said, Britain must leave India to chaos as the Indians can manage their chaos much better than what the British can in an alien territory. India has now become far less chaotic than in the last days of the Raj.

In summary, US created the IS/Daesh in an indirect way and it continues to help creating more potent terror groups through its actions. While the action might have a genuine concern for people there, they are just creating worse problems.
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:09
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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The US left a vaccuum there and in came IS .
Funny, I seem to remember 30,000 Iraqi cowards backed by air support simply running away rather then face of 1000 Islamongs from ISIS.
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:15
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Re: The battle for Mosul

And the real coward just sends the drone!
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Funny, I seem to remember 30,000 Iraqi cowards backed by air support simply running away rather then face of 1000 Islamongs from ISIS.
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:23
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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Why dont the Amercans send in ground troops and artillery to help take Mosul. They caused this trouble so why don't they take more resposibilty for it. Or has it got something to do with the elections. They dont want to rock the boat!
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http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-america-13913

US probably didn't deliberately create the IS in a direct or deliberate way, but its actions created the environment that led to the formation of the ISIS/Daesh. Daesh was an organization that evolved in Camp Bucca in Iraq. This abusive prison was itself set up after the huge scandals at the much more abusive Abu Ghraib. [How the Islamic State evolved in an American prison]. Such prisons brought borderline psychopaths together with radical religious nuts to produce a deadly combo.

On a broader note, Americans are focusing too much on "destroying evil" rather than thinking what comes after. Not long ago they said tyrants like Gaddafi and Saddam are the problem. Those "evils" were done with. Then they said it was Al Qaeda that is the world's biggest threat. That is mostly gone out of vogue now. Now, it is ISIS. Sooner or later they will win the ISIS, in the process creating the next evil to fight the next round. Like teenagers' fads we keep always chasing the hottest terrorist fads of that day. This is the act that helps creating more violent groups.

Now, the US and Russia are fighting the ISIS together trying to defend the stupid Sykes–Picot Agreement of a century ago, providing much more credence to the ISIS stupid assertion that whole world fights Islam. While the ISIS would be destroyed with the combined weight of the superpowers, its assertion would not die. Like lightning rods, each of these bombs on civilians and abuses would acts as radicalizing agents producing more and more potent terrorist groups. You can destroy a group and its habitats. Not an idea.

US has tried years of meddling in Middle East and that has not worked. It is time for it to try leaving the region to chaos. Vietnam didn't become a basketcase after the Americans left it in chaos. Eventually the various forces fighting there made peace among themselves. Gandhi once said, Britain must leave India to chaos as the Indians can manage their chaos much better than what the British can in an alien territory. India has now become far less chaotic than in the last days of the Raj.

In summary, US created the IS/Daesh in an indirect way and it continues to help creating more potent terror groups through its actions. While the action might have a genuine concern for people there, they are just creating worse problems.
So you open a thread saying the US should get involved, and then 6 posts later say they shouldn't
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:29
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Re: The battle for Mosul

That was an opinion by someone else not my words
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So you open a thread saying the US should get involved, and then 6 posts later say they shouldn't
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:36
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-america-13913

US probably didn't deliberately create the IS in a direct or deliberate way, but its actions created the environment that led to the formation of the ISIS/Daesh. Daesh was an organization that evolved in Camp Bucca in Iraq. This abusive prison was itself set up after the huge scandals at the much more abusive Abu Ghraib. [How the Islamic State evolved in an American prison]. Such prisons brought borderline psychopaths together with radical religious nuts to produce a deadly combo.

On a broader note, Americans are focusing too much on "destroying evil" rather than thinking what comes after. Not long ago they said tyrants like Gaddafi and Saddam are the problem. Those "evils" were done with. Then they said it was Al Qaeda that is the world's biggest threat. That is mostly gone out of vogue now. Now, it is ISIS. Sooner or later they will win the ISIS, in the process creating the next evil to fight the next round. Like teenagers' fads we keep always chasing the hottest terrorist fads of that day. This is the act that helps creating more violent groups.

Now, the US and Russia are fighting the ISIS together trying to defend the stupid Sykes–Picot Agreement of a century ago, providing much more credence to the ISIS stupid assertion that whole world fights Islam. While the ISIS would be destroyed with the combined weight of the superpowers, its assertion would not die. Like lightning rods, each of these bombs on civilians and abuses would acts as radicalizing agents producing more and more potent terrorist groups. You can destroy a group and its habitats. Not an idea.

US has tried years of meddling in Middle East and that has not worked. It is time for it to try leaving the region to chaos. Vietnam didn't become a basketcase after the Americans left it in chaos. Eventually the various forces fighting there made peace among themselves. Gandhi once said, Britain must leave India to chaos as the Indians can manage their chaos much better than what the British can in an alien territory. India has now become far less chaotic than in the last days of the Raj.

In summary, US created the IS/Daesh in an indirect way and it continues to help creating more potent terror groups through its actions. While the action might have a genuine concern for people there, they are just creating worse problems.
Almost all of the leaders of the Islamic State are former Iraqi army officers who were already connected.

So you claim that the US was wrong to imprison terrorists?
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Old 18.10.2016, 16:52
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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So you claim that the US was wrong to imprison terrorists?
No, but the US were wrong imprisoning jihadists in the same prisons as baath party officers. Then let them rot there for some years without any fair processes or convictions. Add some torture for good measure.

Islamists and Saddams socialists naturally don't go together at all... but after some years of torture by the US and their new Iraqi puppies did they form an unpleasant union of people who are religious nutcases on the one side and bureaucrats with decades of experience how to execute orders and run a state on the other.

I am the last person to call for US troops, but given how this war was caused by them AND watching what the Russians are doing... for once am I for a quick reaction. Of Nato, not the US.Not just in Mosul and even more so in Syria. The people of Aleppo have been completely ignored by the oh so morally superior west.
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Old 18.10.2016, 18:00
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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Who are the Amercans?
It´s a series on the telly, quite good one too.
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Old 18.10.2016, 18:09
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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The US left a vaccuum there and in came IS .
True, but can you imagine the damage to the morale of the country at this time, if their troops started being beheaded? That scenario will be avoided at every possible cost.

Ten years ago, when one of my friends returned from his second tour of duty in Iraq, he said the most frustrating thing about the entire operation was that the Allied troops were bound by the usual rules of warfare, but their opponents weren't. The opponent they face now is several hundred times worse than that. I'm all for using whatever technological advantage available to keep them at arm's length.
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Old 18.10.2016, 18:18
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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And the real coward just sends the drone!
Somehow I can't picture Obama bare chested on a horse
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Old 18.10.2016, 18:21
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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Somehow I can't picture Obama bare chested on a horse
He is more of a surfer being born in Hawaii...


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Old 18.10.2016, 18:26
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Re: The battle for Mosul

Well morals do not seem to be high on the list with the ruling powers in USA
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True, but can you imagine the damage to the morale of the country at this time, if their troops started being beheaded? That scenario will be avoided at every possible cost.

Ten years ago, when one of my friends returned from his second tour of duty in Iraq, he said the most frustrating thing about the entire operation was that the Allied troops were bound by the usual rules of warfare, but their opponents weren't. The opponent they face now is several hundred times worse than that. I'm all for using whatever technological advantage available to keep them at arm's length.
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Old 18.10.2016, 18:29
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Re: The battle for Mosul

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Ten years ago, when one of my friends returned from his second tour of duty in Iraq, he said the most frustrating thing about the entire operation was that the Allied troops were bound by the usual rules of warfare, but their opponents weren't. The opponent they face now is several hundred times worse than that. I'm all for using whatever technological advantage available to keep them at arm's length.
In case the US was bound to the usual rules of warfare Guantanamo would not exist. Your captives would either be POWs which enjoy a set of rights or common criminals which enjoy a set of rights... and where were your normal rules when the systematic torturing in Iraqi prisons went public? And I am not even getting into what private "contractors" did in the country... where the US insisted that local Iraqi laws must not apply to US private "expats".... the list is endless.


Anyway: Ten years ago I worked for a software company in Zurich and one of our biggest clients was in Syria. We sent entire teams of people over for projects and they loved the place. Stable, peaceful, super friendly locals... we all knew that their government wasn't exactly democratic, but compared to most parts of the middle east was life quite ok for the vast majority including all sorts of minorities. Today less so and I'd say that the main source wasn't the evil dictator (who somehow wasn't evil as long as he played ball and did whatever we asked him for decades...), but a foreign invasion. That the international community just stands there watching people getting beheaded, thrown off buildings and what not else and all they do is complaining about refugees and how they probably are just coming for economic gains... that's completely beyond me.
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Old 18.10.2016, 20:07
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Re: The battle for Mosul

You haven't mentioned the Sunni nor the Shia Islamists, and you haven't mentioned their supporters Iran and Saudi Arabia. They have been fighting each other for about a thousand years. But the problem couldn't be a religious based war, could it?

The USA was accused of invading Iraq for their oil, that wasn't true was it?

It is a fact that ISIS formed up and then broke away from Al Quaeda as they couldn't get along together. The USA prisons didn't invent them.

But go ahead & blame it all on the USA that invaded Iraq, together with a dozen allied forces, and tried to establish a humane government there.
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