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  #2021  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:26
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Everyone was an arse in ex-Yugoslavia back then...I don't buy the oppressed minorities story either.
The problem with that theory, is that the larger, better backed and weaponised arses will ethnically cleanse smaller arses if they are not kept in check.

Last edited by StirB; 13.01.2017 at 11:45.
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  #2022  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:29
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The problem with that theory, is that the larger, better backed and weaponised arses with ethnically cleanse smaller arses if they are not kept in check.
So it was okay to send in the Americans?
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  #2023  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:36
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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This is why I can't rouse myself to give a shit about Trump. Sure, he's likely to be more incompetent than previous presidents, but more evil? It's business as usual, just without the smooth, shiny shell to which we've become accustomed.
I couldn't agree more.

In fact I think the huge positive is that people will come to see the presidency for what it is and awaken people from their naivety.
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  #2024  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:36
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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So it was okay to send in the Americans?
It was NATO, not the Americans.
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  #2025  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:41
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

NATO = always the good guys, with the interests of oppressed minorities at the heart of everything they do.

I'm so glad we've got that settled.
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  #2026  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:43
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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So it was okay to send in the Americans?
Well it helped end that particular conflict, but it wasn't only America, it was NATO. The whole thing was a cluster, from NATO to the UN, but there were some really vicious factions doing pretty much what they wanted to the innocent people on all sides, and its not really nice to stand by and watch as the tragedies unfolded, when intervention has the possibility to bring things to a close.

I take it Phos you would prefer if everybody was just left to their own devices, you'd just shrug your shoulders and say it wasn't your problem! I am glad you are not my friend, because if there was a fight, I bet you'd be exiting the back door.
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  #2027  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:43
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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NATO = always the good guys, with the interests of oppressed minorities at the heart of everything they do.

I'm so glad we've got that settled.
You are free to put words into people's mouths if you choose. It's not a very nice thing to do though.

Do you disagree that the Kosovar Albanians were being massacred?
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  #2028  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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This will likely show up his true colours in time. He's a massive narcissist thriving on cheering crowds, the adulation of all his yes-men and, to-date, the glittery bubble of a newly elected president.
All presidents in my lifetime have been narcissists. It's the type of people that job attracts. Listening to Obama's valedicory speech I felt he was first and foremost talking about himself. Having well groomed words to say it in doesn't make it any better. If people are now waking up its not because of what's new but because of what has always been.

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It's when he has to make difficult decisions which will knock his popularity down among even his supporters it will show.
Just as happened to Obama.
Just as happened to GWB.
Just as happened to Bill Clinton.

see a pattern here?
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  #2029  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:47
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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My reservation about Trump is that he is all bark, and no bite.

So far, with his cabinet picks, and how he has handled the fake news onslaught, I'd have to say that the man has impeccable judgment. He demonstrates sufficient amount of rationality and pragmatism in decision making, and hasn't demonstrated any vindictiveness.

As for the barking on twitter and elsewhere, not everyone in the world, or even most, are thin skinned drama queens.

I think if he starts revealing that he is truly a pussycat, he'll start to fail us.
There are obviously two Trumps. There is Trump the showman and TV personality, and Trump the business wizard. So far we've seen the showman side of him. I expect that when push comes to shove he will be able to push the switch and bring on the business Trump.

Whether or not the skills it took him to win the election will also serve him well in actually performing the duties of office is something that only the future can tell. I'm willing to give him a fair chance rather than condemn him before he's even started..
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  #2030  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I take it Phos you would prefer if everybody was just left to their own devices, you'd just shrug your shoulders and say it wasn't your problem! I am glad you are not my friend, because if there was a fight, I bet you'd be exiting the back door.
As always, of course you take it wrong. Only to point out that you should remember that if any when the US gets involved somewhere.

Frankly, I find this bullshit of the US babysitting the world tiring. Next time it happens, I would like to get a clear value proposition: "What do we get for it in return?"
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  #2031  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Just as happened to Obama.
Just as happened to GWB.
Just as happened to Bill Clinton.

see a pattern here?
How many of them had a (or multiple) twitter meltdown(s) in the style of a 14 year old, though? That was my point. He's a Kardashian wannabe, and if you like that kind of thing, you'll be in for a treat for the next four years. Unless his 70 year old carcass can't take the stress.
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  #2032  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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NATO = always the good guys, with the interests of oppressed minorities at the heart of everything they do.

I'm so glad we've got that settled.
Noooope certainly not, but its the security we have against an aggressive and capable Russia. I am happy to live with NATO as protection, because if Vlad could have his way there would be a lot of ex-soviet block countries being reclaimed and many more threats towards those that don't agree with Russian posturing at the borders of Europe. You do know, we never really left the cold war behind, its still going on, just encased in the guise of capitalism. We are just witnessing the 21c version, with election rigging, blackmailing, fake news and hacking.

Last edited by TobiasM; 13.01.2017 at 12:00.
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  #2033  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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You are free to put words into people's mouths if you choose. It's not a very nice thing to do though.

Do you disagree that the Kosovar Albanians were being massacred?
The Kosovars were irrelevant to the NATO action in Serbia. Totally, and utterly irrelevant.

Sure they were being massacred. There were some pretty nasty things done to Serbs in Kosovo too (massively under-reported in the British press at the time), but that's neither here nor there: the bombardment of Belgrade and Novi Sad had nothing to do with "humanitarian concerns".
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  #2034  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:50
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The Kosovars were irrelevant to the NATO action in Serbia. Totally, and utterly irrelevant.

Sure they were being massacred. There were some pretty nasty things done to Serbs in Kosovo too (massively under-reported in the British press at the time), but that's neither here nor there: the bombardment of Belgrade and Novi Sad had nothing to do with "humanitarian concerns".
Yet it directly lead to the treaty which stopped the Serbs from killing the Kosovars. We'll agree to disagree and call that a happy coincidence.
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  #2035  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:55
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Yet it directly lead to the treaty which stopped the Serbs from killing the Kosovars. We'll agree to disagree and call that a happy coincidence.
... and led to the establishment of a gangster state, governed by terrorists, with an appalling human rights record.

But, again, Kosovo was just a sideshow. That everyone seems to think it was the main event just shows how little people were paying attention.
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  #2036  
Old 13.01.2017, 11:55
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Noooope certainly not, but its the security we have against an aggressive and capable Russia. I am happy to live with NATO as protection, because if Vlad could have his way there would be a lot of ex-soviet block countries being reclaimed and many more threats towards those that don't agree with Russian posturing at the borders of Europe. You do know, we never really left the cold war behind, its still going on, just encased in the guise of capitalism.
Out of curiousity, really for my understand of your perspective, what makes you believe you automatically deserve that kind of protection from Russia by the US, and what have you done for the US in return?
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Old 13.01.2017, 11:58
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Noooope certainly not, but its the security we have against an aggressive and capable Russia. I am happy to live with NATO as protection, because if Vlad could have his way there would be a lot of ex-soviet block countries being reclaimed and many more threats towards those that don't agree with Russian posturing at the borders of Europe. You do know, we never really left the cold war behind, its still going on, just encased in the guise of capitalism.
You know that NATO has been engaged in aggressive posturing and the breaking of promises ever since the fall of the Soviet Union?

It has kept the peace in Western Europe for seventy years - of that there is no doubt - but let's not pretend for one minute that it hasn't broken plenty of eggs on its way to making that omelette of safety you seem to take for granted.
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Old 13.01.2017, 12:04
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Out of curiousity, really for my understand of your perspective, what makes you believe you automatically deserve that kind of protection from Russia by the US, and what have you done for the US in return?
How many times...NATO != USA
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  #2039  
Old 13.01.2017, 12:07
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Out of curiousity, really for my understand of your perspective, what makes you believe you automatically deserve that kind of protection from Russia by the US, and what have you done for the US in return?
To be honest, I think the US of the cold war era would have defended Europe even if all of Europe had been rabidly anti-US. If America had pulled all its troops and capabilities from this side of the Atlantic and allowed the Soviets to occupy that space, the geopolitical situation would be much worse for the US today.

See the Truman doctrine etc etc

I think the US acted largely out of its own interests. Any support or sympathy they recieved was a welcome collateral bonus, but not the objective.
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Old 13.01.2017, 12:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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As always, of course you take it wrong. Only to point out that you should remember that if any when the US gets involved somewhere.

Frankly, I find this bullshit of the US babysitting the world tiring. Next time it happens, I would like to get a clear value proposition: "What do we get for it in return?"
I agree (did I just say that?) that the US are not always arbitrators of justice, but I don't agree that we should expect something in return. However we never see other superpowers jumping in to help. Russia and China couldn't give a flying f about humanitarian issues or wars, unless it really will impact them financially or is a direct threat and India????. Europe arbitrates, but has to come together as a unity and each country has a very different viewpoint. Then again this is why the UN exists and NATO to some extent.

We have gone way off thread here though, but actually if I am talking about Russian involvement in getting Trump elected, its clear that those tactics are part of a greater and very sinister strategy. And I think the ending of US involvement in NATO could be a very real objective, Russia wants an inactive and belligerent president to not get involved in its on going affairs. Russia knows Trump will be preoccupied with whats happening on the home front and that he will actively keep the US out of international politics, or at the very least destroy all the good relationships the US has.
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