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View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
Yes 93 27.03%
No 251 72.97%
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  #20841  
Old 06.01.2020, 11:53
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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This. I don't believe in lamenting though. I think it must be corrected. The laws are all there .... unless the POTUS has a license for murder that I don't know of.

See, that's the thing with laws:
They need to be interpreted.


And for a very long time, what the public thinks the laws say and how politicians and administrations actually interpreted them started to drift apart...
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  #20842  
Old 06.01.2020, 11:55
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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And you think Trump as heard of Sunni and Shiite?
If so, he thinks they are types of hamburgers.
Bit harsh, he knows them very well. He loves "I got you, Babe".
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  #20843  
Old 06.01.2020, 12:07
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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As I said, this is not an isolated case:

https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/the-kill-chain/

Every single one of those drone-strikes to take out high-value enemy targets has to be signed by POTUS.

I don't really see a reason to make Soleimani's case special.
I also don't see a reason to single out the current POTUS even though he "just" continues a scheme set-up by his predecessors (who had....different...views and judgments on some things).

Trump likes - loves, celebrates - his role as a wildcard, a "joker".

He literally wants to be seen as the man who goes where no-one has gone before, where no-one has dared to go before. The fact that Obama and Bush shied away from taking out Soleimani was probably making that option more attractive than it was a deterrent.

Iran has smart people in government and intelligence - they should have seen this coming, after that drone-attack job in Saudi-Arabia at the latest. If they don't have a psychological profile of Trump, their analysts aren't worth a piece of camel-dung.

Soleimani was an actor in a war-zone, there is no way to sugar-coat that.

He was meddling with (and sometimes steering) every single armed conflict in the Arab world as well as several others.
He was living on borrowed time and probably fully knew (and accepted) it. Maybe, deep down, dying as a martyr was part of a larger plan anyway?
He was, by all accounts, a very smart man after all.


Should we lament that the world is seemingly on the edge of a dystopian nightmare where there is no law but that of the one who has the most powerful military?
Hell, yes!

But it's IMO hypocrisy to put all the blame on Trump.
Some of the blame must go to us, for not electing better politicians.

Skripal, Litvinenko and...and cases don't seem to have caused much outrage. I do wonder though, does Putin actually have to sign for this shit? Trumpolino is not alone in this global mess, not excusable but somehow people seem to overlook other nefarious characters.
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  #20844  
Old 06.01.2020, 12:21
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Well, it's government. One hand can perfectly undo a thing the other hand tries to do.


And as these operations are often highly compartmentalized...
Your theory is that the people who planned the killing knew when he would be in Baghdad, how he would travel from the airport and at what time but did not know why he was there? Seems unlikely.
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  #20845  
Old 06.01.2020, 12:34
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I don't. I felt the same way when Obama did his stunt with Bin Laden etc. etc.

This. I don't believe in lamenting though. I think it must be corrected. The laws are all there .... unless the POTUS has a license for murder that I don't know of.

I would have been misunderstood if thought that I put all the blame on Trump, he's just following the path other presidents have started to trample and it will become a road if not stopped.
State-sanctioned assassinations are not new for the US, but they were generally reserved for those associated with and in non-states or failed-states and - in the view of the US military/gov - tied to terrorism. Bin Laden is a good example of this.

Iran and its leaders are different. It has the same population as Germany and is a relatively wealthy, well-armed, and stable republic (~40 years) for the region. The stakes are higher. There's a reason the US doesn't assassinate North Korean and Russian Generals - even though they've been responsible for similar terrible actions. There's a reason Putin murders Russian expatriates he considers traitors but shies away from foreign government officials.

I get the reductionist impulse - "assassinations are assassinations, no difference" - but by focusing only on that you're missing the critical norm-busting aspect of the Soleimani assassination. And how this type of assassination raises the stakes and is much more likely to spark significantly larger and more deadly conflicts.
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  #20846  
Old 06.01.2020, 12:53
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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There's a reason Putin murders Russian expatriates he considers traitors but shies away from foreign government officials.
Maybe because he has other unorthodox ways of messing up with said foreign governments? He's obviously way more subtle, I have to give you that.
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  #20847  
Old 06.01.2020, 13:15
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Top 10 military forces (by personnel) as of 2019. Iran is not far from the world's 6th largest military force, with the US in 3rd place. Not the typical asymetrical fight anyone wants to get into. Link.
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  #20848  
Old 06.01.2020, 13:58
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Skripal, Litvinenko and...and cases don't seem to have caused much outrage. I do wonder though, does Putin actually have to sign for this shit?

I would be extremely surprised - even shocked - if there was any paperwork for that.
Putin is way, way too smart for such a rookie-blunder.


There's probably at least two layers of apparatchiks between those decisions and his front-office while Trump probably overruled a handful of Pentagon-generals and Senior State Department advisors (if there are any left).


I don't deny the seriousness of the action.


I just hate the hysteria when people have been warning about something like this for years or even decades.


It's not a new thing.
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  #20849  
Old 06.01.2020, 14:28
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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State-sanctioned assassinations are not new for the US, but they were generally reserved for those associated with and in non-states or failed-states and - in the view of the US military/gov - tied to terrorism. Bin Laden is a good example of this.

Iran and its leaders are different. It has the same population as Germany and is a relatively wealthy, well-armed, and stable republic (~40 years) for the region. The stakes are higher. There's a reason the US doesn't assassinate North Korean and Russian Generals - even though they've been responsible for similar terrible actions. There's a reason Putin murders Russian expatriates he considers traitors but shies away from foreign government officials.

I get the reductionist impulse - "assassinations are assassinations, no difference" - but by focusing only on that you're missing the critical norm-busting aspect of the Soleimani assassination. And how this type of assassination raises the stakes and is much more likely to spark significantly larger and more deadly conflicts.
It's not a "reductionist impulse" on my part, it is a deep, principle conception of mine. And I don't hold this view only since the Soleimani case ..... or even Bin Laden. As you said <<State-sanctioned assassinations are not new for the US>> and for others.

Should Trump be killed by a third party drone one day, I hope I won't have a short "Swiss selber Schuld" moment, meaning not only Trump but entire America who let's their "leaders" get away with such things while claiming they are a western democracy.

In the political environment where assassination has become a tool I'm not missing the critical norm-busting aspect of the Soleimani assassination. And as this is the Trump-thread (and I've said my piece), I agree the Soleimani case is the thing to discuss here now and not the principle of taking lives.

I am tempted to think that Trump had this "I wanna do this too, I wanna do this too" fit (I can literally see him clapping his fat little handes) and the "let's take the attention off the domestic political mess" (as someone mentioned) was more likely his advisors's thoughts behind it all. *

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.........while Trump probably overruled a handful of Pentagon-generals and Senior State Department advisors (if there are any left).
* LOL, right, if there are any left. Didn't think of that possibility.
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  #20850  
Old 06.01.2020, 14:33
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I would be extremely surprised - even shocked - if there was any paperwork for that.
Putin is way, way too smart for such a rookie-blunder.


There's probably at least two layers of apparatchiks between those decisions and his front-office while Trump probably overruled a handful of Pentagon-generals and Senior State Department advisors (if there are any left).


I don't deny the seriousness of the action.


I just hate the hysteria when people have been warning about something like this for years or even decades.


It's not a new thing.
So would I, it wasn't a very serious question. But you actually did touch a nerve here - how ironic that Putin has learned to package his deeds in a more or less "palatable" consensus/way, while Trump is doing everything he can to undermine the very people whom he should actually be working with. And he's creating a domino effect.
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  #20851  
Old 06.01.2020, 14:37
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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....While Iran will never be able to properly admit it, Soleimani was both hated and feared within the country.
They are not nearly as saddened as the leaders will let the outside world believe. .....
2:54 PM · Jan 3, 2020
Meanwhile in the real world, Soleimani's funeral
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  #20852  
Old 06.01.2020, 14:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Meanwhile in the real world, Soleimani's funeral
Attachment 138419
Trump's done a great job in uniting Iran!

All those factions which were at each others throats and now they're collectively gunning for the US and its allies.
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  #20853  
Old 06.01.2020, 14:55
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Meanwhile in the real world, Soleimani's funeral
Attachment 138419
Almost as much as Trump's inauguration crowd.
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  #20854  
Old 06.01.2020, 15:03
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Almost as much as Trump's inauguration crowd.
Trump: "Soleimani's funeral drew a HUGE crowd, the biggest ever, the best crowd in history. It was sooooooooo much bigger than Bin Laden's crowd. Obama killed the wrong guy."
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  #20855  
Old 06.01.2020, 15:04
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Meanwhile in the real world, Soleimani's funeral
Attachment 138419
Terrorist get-together, they should have droned that as well!

Tom
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  #20856  
Old 06.01.2020, 15:13
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Usually the Iranians are so loving towards the Americans, and now Trump has gone and ruined it.
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  #20857  
Old 06.01.2020, 15:21
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Foreign Policy is for people with patience.


That's not what we can expect from the current POTUS it seems.
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Old 06.01.2020, 15:29
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Usually the Iranians are so loving towards the Americans, and now Trump has gone and ruined it.
Usually the Americans are so loving towards the Iranians, and now Trump has gone and ruined it.
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Old 06.01.2020, 15:35
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Looks like Javad Zarif and Trump will meet in Davos.
How about a man against man fight?

Well, there are still a few cool headed people in the government;
From the official Twitter-channel of «House Foreign Affairs Committee» :

<< This Media Post will serve as a reminder that war powers reside in the Congress under the United States Constitution. And that you should read the War Powers Act. And that you’re not a dictator. https://t.co/VTroMegWv0
— House Foreign Affairs Committee (@HouseForeign) January 5, 2020>>
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  #20860  
Old 06.01.2020, 15:49
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Terrorist get-together, they should have droned that as well!

Tom
There exists a coherent, neoconservative Warhawk ideology that justifies this type of hyperaggressive military posture. It is wrong, cruel, and dangerous. But as Trump and others () routinely demonstrate, that's rarely the motivation at work. More often than not, it's simply bellicose jingoism.
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