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  #21061  
Old 10.01.2020, 12:30
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Indeed. I think a lot of people would consider his Tonyship and Dubya to be war criminals, but if Iran or anyone else were to have them assassinated, then it would be an outrage.
A good article on this subject: https://theweek.com/articles/887283/...use-iran-doing

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"So yes, Soleimani has fueled a lot of nasty conflicts and killed a lot of people, directly or indirectly, many of them American soldiers — though it's worth noting also that much of his recent effort has been dedicated to fighting ISIS (with great effectiveness, by all accounts) in a tacit uneasy alliance with U.S. forces.

Yet even the worst of Soleimani's record pales in comparison with the most blood-drenched American warmongers. If Soleimani deserves condemnation for arming Iraqi insurgents, then George W. Bush and Dick Cheney deserve 10 times as much for starting the war in the first place. It was a pointless, illegal war of aggression sold on lies that obliterated Iraqi society and killed perhaps half a million people, almost all of them innocent civilians. (Our own Soleimani, General David Petraeus, was connected to the operation of Iraqi torture dungeons and paramilitary death squads during the fight against the insurgency.)

If Soleimani deserves blame for helping Bashar al-Assad brutally defeat Syrian rebels, Henry Kissinger deserves 10 times as much for orchestrating the bombing slaughter of perhaps a quarter million Cambodians and paving the way for the Khmer Rouge genocide that killed 1.7 million people.

If any accused war criminal at an airport is fair game, then there are a lot of people in D.C. and Northern Virginia who better start traveling by train or ship.

Indeed, the Quds Force itself was originally created during the Iran-Iraq War, which was started by a heavily U.S.-backed Saddam Hussein in 1980. A million Iranians died in the grueling eight-year conflict. And the reason the Islamic Republic exists in the first place is because the United States and Britain toppled Iran's fledgling democracy in 1953 and installed a brutal dictator.

It is not exactly hard to understand why Iran — like about every other country in the Middle East — keeps some brutal, hard people like Soleimani around. It's a violent, unstable neighborhood, and war is an unavoidable reality. And no country is more responsible for that fact than the United States."
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  #21062  
Old 10.01.2020, 12:36
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I agree but I think the point he made is valid, despite the incorrect terminology. We shouldn't allow the choice of word to invalidate his otherwise good point.

He's implying that there is a (perceived or actually existing) loyalty of people of Jewish belief towards the State of Israel, regardless of their nationality.

As I am not Jewish and I don't know anybody who is, it's difficult to assess the validity of these claims (which are often regurgitated by films and books in various forms).
  #21063  
Old 10.01.2020, 12:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He's implying that there is a (perceived or actually existing) loyalty of people of Jewish belief towards the State of Israel, regardless of their nationality.

As I am not Jewish and I don't know anybody who is, it's difficult to assess the validity of these claims (which are often regurgitated by films and books in various forms).
I suspect he really meant Israel, rather than Jews - or at least I would hope so.
  #21064  
Old 10.01.2020, 12:45
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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As I am not Jewish and I don't know anybody who is, it's difficult to assess the validity of these claims (which are often regurgitated by films and books in various forms).
Also regurgitated by every modern anti-semitic movement. It's used to "other" Jews and present them as unable to be loyal citizens in the country they reside in. Similar arguments were made in the US when Irish and Italian Catholics immigrated (loyalty to the pope) and now about Muslims (loyalty to the Quran).

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  #21065  
Old 10.01.2020, 13:01
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I must have been on holidays when murdering culprits long distance was taken into international law.
My bad, obviously.
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Indeed. I think a lot of people would consider his Tonyship and Dubya to be war criminals, but if Iran or anyone else were to have them assassinated, then it would be an outrage.
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I was going to write the same thing but ran out of time before lunch. This general was not some random rogue terrorist group leader, he was Iran's top military leader and a revered national asset. When they took him out they officially committed an attack against Iran, and if Iran were a bigger and stronger country there would now be a war.

The USA took him out because they knew Iran can't do anything significant in return... real bully boy tactics. Can you imagine if Iran did the same to a top USA general they perceived as a terrorist? It would be absolute carnage.
He is not "perceived" as a terrorist, he was a terrorist! He was on international terrorist lists from the UN to the EU. There is a night and day difference between General Soleimani and President Bush and Mr Blair. The latter two may indeed be war criminals, however they are no terrorists.

International law says that a State may act in self defence if an armed attack is imminent. General Soleimani was in Iraq, when he shouldn't have been, very likely planning more terrorist attacks. Legally I have no problem with it and he certainly he deserved what he got, just as Osama Bin Laden and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi deserved it too.
  #21066  
Old 10.01.2020, 13:05
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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As I am not Jewish and I don't know anybody who is, it's difficult to assess the validity of these claims (which are often regurgitated by films and books in various forms).
Well I know. Israel is a foreign country for them. Of course there is a sympathy, but it doesn't extend to everything Israel does or says.

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Also regurgitated by every modern anti-semitic movement. It's used to "other" Jews and present them as unable to be loyal citizens in the country they reside in. Similar arguments were made in the US when Irish and Italian Catholics immigrated (loyalty to the pope) and now about Muslims (loyalty to the Quran).
This. Exactly.
  #21067  
Old 10.01.2020, 13:06
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He is not "perceived" as a terrorist, he was a terrorist! He was on international terrorist lists from the UN to the EU. There is a night and day difference between General Soleimani and President Bush and Mr Blair. The latter two may indeed be war criminals, however they are no terrorists.
I think you might accidentally be invoking Stalin here when you try to differentiate between terrorists and war criminals.

You view killing handfuls of people, as terrorists are wont to do as a tragedy whereas killing millions, as war criminals tend to, as a statistic.

Also, do you have any evidence for Soleimani being on EU and UN terrorist watchlists? I can find no evidence for this aside from Trump claiming it to be so.
  #21068  
Old 10.01.2020, 13:18
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I think you might accidentally be invoking Stalin here when you try to differentiate between terrorists and war criminals.

You view killing handfuls of people, as terrorists are wont to do as a tragedy whereas killing millions, as war criminals tend to, as a statistic.

Also, do you have any evidence for Soleimani being on EU and UN terrorist watchlists? I can find no evidence for this aside from Trump claiming it to be so.
President George W. Bush and Tony Blair's war was illegal in my opinion, and numerous war crimes were committed during the conflict. It was however never a stated aim or intention to kill and murder innocent civilians. This is where the difference lies. General Soleimani held no qualms over committed acts of mass murder so long as it was in the interests of the Islamic Revolution. He's killed innocent people in their thousands and with unrestrained barbarity in Syria and Iraq and with total impunity too. A despicable terrorist working for a despicable regime.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...errorist-list/
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...9D0025&from=EN
https://www.undocs.org/S/RES/2231(2015)
  #21069  
Old 10.01.2020, 13:32
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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President George W. Bush and Tony Blair's war was illegal in my opinion, and numerous war crimes were committed during the conflict. It was however never a stated aim or intention to kill and murder innocent civilians. This is where the difference lies. General Soleimani held no qualms over committed acts of mass murder so long as it was in the interests of the Islamic Revolution. He's killed innocent people in their thousands and with unrestrained barbarity in Syria and Iraq and with total impunity too. A despicable terrorist working for a despicable regime.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...errorist-list/
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...9D0025&from=EN
https://www.undocs.org/S/RES/2231(2015)
And yet he still killed only a tiny fraction of Bush and Blair's numbers.

What did our intrepid duo think would happen during aerial bombardments, with millions of tons of ordnance being fired into the country? Unicorns and daisies I suppose.

Collateral damage is fine when it aligns with our aims, but not when it aligns with Iran's aims, is that really your takeaway here?
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Old 10.01.2020, 13:38
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Talk about calling a spade an earth moving horticultural instrument.
Why is it that people get all uncomfortable and squealy whenever the word "Jew" falls?
I think I should have written "Zionists" instead, maybe even the Israel lobby in the US.

Itīs a tought topic for a Friday discussion.
  #21071  
Old 10.01.2020, 13:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Talk about calling a spade an earth moving horticultural instrument.
Why is it that people get all uncomfortable and squealy whenever the word "Jew" falls?
I think I should have written "Zionists" instead, maybe even the Israel lobby in the US.

Itīs a tought topic for a Friday discussion.
In all fairness, had you singled out any race/nationality/religion, I think it would have caused discomfort.

I think we all know what you mean now though.
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Old 10.01.2020, 14:13
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Very different degrees there. The USA made what many consider an unprovoked, unsanctioned and illegal attack against a nation state, Iran responded with some missiles, and then was on tenderhooks waiting for a USA response which they thought might cause serious damage (USA military technology is far in advance of their own so they were very rightly nervous and frightened of what could happen) and reasonably assumed would come in the form of an aircraft to attack them. This, in combination with Iranian incompetence, led directly to the 737 being shot down.

Trump of course didn't shoot the plane down, but his assassination led directly to the series of events that caused it and if he had not have done it then the plane would certainly not have been shot down.
Even in a heavily militarized regime, the decison to shoot down a plane in peacetime is not taken lightly. So either there was an extreme level of incompetence, or the Iranians completely misread the situation and were literally crapping themselves in expectation of instant armageddon.

Either way, that doesn't bode well for Iranian military leadership.
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  #21073  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:14
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Collateral damage is fine when it aligns with our aims, but not when it aligns with Iran's aims, is that really your takeaway here?
This!
Moreover, the biggest present given to the Islamic Republic in the last 30 years was given precisely by Bush by removing Saddam, who was keeping Iran at bay. When I say present, I mean that removing Saddam without the ability to fill the power vacuum created the playing field for Iran and this is what we're seeing now: incompetence multiplied by incompetence never leads to a coherent strategy, but to disaster.
Mind you, this is in no way defending the odious mullahs, but it explains their behavior and assassinating one of their generals just because they can is in no way a replacement for a coherent strategy, which the US never had in the middle east.
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  #21074  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:25
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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And yet he still killed only a tiny fraction of Bush and Blair's numbers.

What did our intrepid duo think would happen during aerial bombardments, with millions of tons of ordnance being fired into the country? Unicorns and daisies I suppose.

Collateral damage is fine when it aligns with our aims, but not when it aligns with Iran's aims, is that really your takeaway here?
No, now don't twist what I've said, which made no mention of collateral damage. Terrorism attacks made against civilians is not equatable interstate conflict where every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties.
  #21075  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:32
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Talk about calling a spade an earth moving horticultural instrument.
Why is it that people get all uncomfortable and squealy whenever the word "Jew" falls?
I think I should have written "Zionists" instead, maybe even the Israel lobby in the US.

Itīs a tought topic for a Friday discussion.
I know Jews who love Trump, and I know Jews who hate Trump, they can hardly be lumped together.

Tom
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  #21076  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:36
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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So either there was an extreme level of incompetence, or the Iranians completely misread the situation and were literally crapping themselves in expectation of instant armageddon.
As I wrote, to me it sounds like both.
  #21077  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:40
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I know Jews who love Trump, and I know Jews who hate Trump, they can hardly be lumped together.

Tom
Erm, they are both (all) Jews?
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  #21078  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Why does Trumps face look like the peel of a mandarin?

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  #21079  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:51
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Erm, they are both (all) Jews?
Many of each.

Tom
  #21080  
Old 10.01.2020, 14:52
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Why does Trumps face look like the peel of a mandarin?

Attachment 138439
He's more of a bitter orange in my opinion.
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