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View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
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Old 21.05.2020, 15:36
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather the president of the USA wasn't randomly trying medicines "just in case". He's probably the most tested man in the world right now, with tests every day or every few days. I cannot see how, for him, the potential benefit outweighs the risk. Unless we're talking financial benefit through his not-at-all-blind trusts.
I actually very much agree. I wasn't trying to defend Trump taking Chloroquine (and I certainly don't think he should be suggesting that other people take it, especially considering the risks). I was simply pointing to some of the studies that are being done or have been done regarding its efficacy. Most of what we see in the media about Chloroquine for COVID treatment is that it's bad or unproven, but if you look up and actually read through some of the studies that have been done about its use for treating COVID, the studies actually have shown that it can have benefits for treating the virus and also for potential use as a prophylactic.
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Old 21.05.2020, 16:04
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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This is a version of the argument that people criticising Trump should hold themselves to a higher standard, but Trump's vile behavior gets him the votes so how else are politicians to win over those voters?
I can’t answer that for other people. I know there’s plenty of other material to work with.
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Old 21.05.2020, 16:19
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I actually very much agree. I wasn't trying to defend Trump taking Chloroquine (and I certainly don't think he should be suggesting that other people take it, especially considering the risks). I was simply pointing to some of the studies that are being done or have been done regarding its efficacy. Most of what we see in the media about Chloroquine for COVID treatment is that it's bad or unproven, but if you look up and actually read through some of the studies that have been done about its use for treating COVID, the studies actually have shown that it can have benefits for treating the virus and also for potential use as a prophylactic.
Actually nothing you linked to contains the result of a properly conducted clinical trial to support your claim that "it can have benefits for treating the virus and also for potential use as a prophylactic".

From one of your linked papers on April 21.
Quote:
Conclusion: We found that the COVID-19 research methodology is very poor in the area of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine research. In screening the literature, we observed the same across COVID-19 research in relation to potential treatments.
The reporting is very poor and sparse, and patient-important outcomes needed to discern decision-making priorities are not reported. We do understand the barriers to perform rigorous research in health care settings overwhelmed by a novel deadly disease.
However, this emergency pandemic situation does not transform flawed methods and data into credible results.
The adequately powered, comparative, and robust clinical research that is needed for optimal evidence-informed decision-making remains absent in COVID-19.
We also have
Quote:
A National Institutes of Health-funded observational study of a total of 1,376 patients conducted by investigators at New York-Presbyterian Hospital and Columbia University Irvine Medical Center revealed that hydroxychloroquine failed to help hospitalized patients with COVID-19.

Study author Dr. Schluger suggests although not a randomized and controlled study the findings nonetheless establish a clear directive, at least for the study sponsor and investigators, not to use hydroxychloroquine outside of randomized controlled trials.
Source
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  #22984  
Old 21.05.2020, 17:43
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Actually nothing you linked to contains the result of a properly conducted clinical trial to support your claim that "it can have benefits for treating the virus and also for potential use as a prophylactic".

From one of your linked papers on April 21.


We also have


Source
Perhaps I should have included the word "potentially" in there, to convey that a few studies have shown that it can potentially have benefits. I did use the word studies rather than the term clinical trials, because clinical trials are occurring now.

In one of the studies I linked to, it says this:

"The aim of this study was to indirectly investigate the efficacy of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19 by determining the prevalence of COVID-19 in malaria pandemic and non-pandemic nations. We sought evidence to support or refute the hypothesis that these drugs could show efficacy in the treatment of COVID-19.

Materials and methods: We reviewed in vitro studies, in vivo studies, original studies, clinical trials, and consensus reports, that were conducted to evaluate the antiviral activities of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine. The studies on "COVID-19 and its allied treatment were found from World Health Organization (WHO), ISI-Web of Science, PubMed, EMBASE, Scopus, Google Scholar, and clinical trial registries. The search was based on keywords: antiviral drugs, chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, COVID-19, COVID-19 treatment modalities, and coronavirus. In addition, we analyzed the prevalence of COVID-19 in malaria pandemic and non-pandemic countries. The review and analyses were performed on March 28, 2020.

Results: For this study, we identified a total of 09 published articles: 03 clinical trials with sample size 150; 03 in vitro studies and 03 expert consensus reports. These studies were all suggestive that chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine can successfully treat COVID-19 infections. We found that COVID-19 infections are highly pandemic in countries where malaria is least pandemic and are least pandemic in nations where malaria is highly pandemic.

Conclusions: Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have antiviral characteristics in vitro. The findings support the hypothesis that these drugs have efficacy in the treatment of COVID-19. People are currently using these drugs for malaria. It is reasonable, given the hypothetical benefit of these two drugs, that they are now being tested in clinical trials to assess their effectiveness to combat this global health crisis."

Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32373993/

And in the other paper that I had linked to, it mentions the results of studies that were conducted in vitro:

"Both CQ and HCQ have been suggested as agents for treatment and prevention of COVID‐19. Studies have reported in vitro activity against SARS‐CoV‐2 (Liu 2020b; Wang 2020b; Yao 2020), and pharmacokinetic modelling suggests efficacy of a few postulated dosing regimens for treatment (Yao 2020).

Liu 2020b reported that CQ and HCQ appear to inhibit transport of SARS‐CoV‐2 virions from early endosomes to endolysosomes in Vero E6 cells, which may be a requirement for release of the viral genome and subsequent viral replication. Wang 2020b performed a "time‐to‐addition" assay using Vero E6 cells, and found that CQ appeared to both inhibit entry of SARS‐CoV‐2 into cells, and inhibit viral replication after cell entry. The authors of both studies also speculate that CQ and HCQ could impact on disease severity in CoVID‐19 through modulating the excess cytokine release that appears to contribute to life‐threatening forms of the disease (Liu 2020b; Wang 2020b)."

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr....CD013587/full

Last edited by Pancakes; 21.05.2020 at 17:55.
  #22985  
Old 21.05.2020, 17:49
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather the president of the USA wasn't randomly trying medicines "just in case". He's probably the most tested man in the world right now, with tests every day or every few days. I cannot see how, for him, the potential benefit outweighs the risk.
I think he either does it because it may work (it did on a taxi driver back home who was in worse than critical state), or because he wants to give hope to people and show he is not afraid to test it on himself. It can have that effect. Opposition is either going to flame him 24/7 because of this or any other material they are busy working on. His supporters are going to probably give him thumbs up for being courageous and proactive. I do not think it is a self promo stunt.
  #22986  
Old 21.05.2020, 18:06
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I think he either does it because it may work (it did on a taxi driver back home who was in worse than critical state), or because he wants to give hope to people and show he is not afraid to test it on himself. It can have that effect. Opposition is either going to flame him 24/7 because of this or any other material they are busy working on. His supporters are going to probably give him thumbs up for being courageous and proactive. I do not think it is a self promo stunt.
There are quite a few clinical trials going on right now, which require human participants. So it appears that Trump may be one of them. Many of these studies are asking for participants and / or include healthcare workers, to study whether or not the drug is effective as a prophylactic.

I have to correct myself, with what I had written above, as apparently there have already been clinical trials (though most are still ongoing). However, the clinical trials that have already been done appear to have some degree of flaws in them. The following paper, dated May 2nd, states that: "There are currently 7 completed clinical trials and 29 registered clinical trials focusing on HCQ or CQ as a therapeutic avenue for COVID-19. Of these, 5/7 trials have shown favorable outcomes for patients using CQ or HCQ and 2/7 have shown no change compared to control."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32359203/
  #22987  
Old 21.05.2020, 18:07
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I think he either does it because it may work (it did on a taxi driver back home who was in worse than critical state), or because he wants to give hope to people and show he is not afraid to test it on himself. It can have that effect. Opposition is either going to flame him 24/7 because of this or any other material they are busy working on. His supporters are going to probably give him thumbs up for being courageous and proactive. I do not think it is a self promo stunt.
More likely his supporters will kill themselves with unproven drugs.

Anecdotal evidence like "a taxi driver back home" does not really help.

The fact that there is a "hypothetical benefit" is a reason to start proper clinical trials but is no guarantee of success.
  #22988  
Old 21.05.2020, 18:11
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I think he either does it because it may work (it did on a taxi driver back home who was in worse than critical state), or because he wants to give hope to people and show he is not afraid to test it on himself. It can have that effect. Opposition is either going to flame him 24/7 because of this or any other material they are busy working on. His supporters are going to probably give him thumbs up for being courageous and proactive. I do not think it is a self promo stunt.
Its more than likely he is not taking it. He is after all a pathological liar.
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  #22989  
Old 21.05.2020, 18:25
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

I think that, in terms of the drug's safety and effectiveness, it's probably too early to tell. It reminds me of a line from one of my favorite stories by Isaac Asimov, "The Last Question":


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Old 21.05.2020, 18:27
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I think that, in terms of the drug's safety and effectiveness, it's probably too early to tell. It reminds me of a line from one of my favorite stories by Isaac Asimov, "The Last Question":


Attachment 139475
I like Asimov.

And, there is the asnwer to the OP.
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Old 21.05.2020, 19:03
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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More likely his supporters will kill themselves with unproven drugs.

Anecdotal evidence like "a taxi driver back home" does not really help.

The fact that there is a "hypothetical benefit" is a reason to start proper clinical trials but is no guarantee of success.
Correlation does not imply causation.

I think it is irresponsible to recommend this medicine before we know for sure how effective it is and for which demographic groups. It appears it can work only in certain situations. It may give hope, but it is deceiving if not down right dangerous. I wouldn't play with people's health, or hopes, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately corona virus is very unpredictable in some cases and every little mistake can cost someone's life.

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This is a version of the argument that people criticising Trump should hold themselves to a higher standard, but Trump's vile behavior gets him the votes so how else are politicians to win over those voters?
This. Nancy Pelosi should know better than that. There's nothing worse than not holding oneself to a higher standard when it comes to making a point. She could have said it in a different way. She reacted like him and he must be thrilled, jubilating now....

Plus it will drag the campaign even farther away from its legit purpose. The purpose is not to insult your adversary. The purpose is to discuss things that people want to be discussed or care about.

For instance....I would ask - did Trump build the wall with Mexico? He promised. He was voted for that. He should be held accountable after his first mandate.....no?

Last edited by greenmount; 21.05.2020 at 19:16.
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Old 21.05.2020, 19:18
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I like Asimov.

And, there is the asnwer to the OP.
It would be nice to see him do something positive for a change. Most of his presidency so far just seems to be him constantly pointing the finger at people while simultaneously refusing to accept any accountability for his own actions.
  #22993  
Old 21.05.2020, 19:41
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Its more than likely he is not taking it. He is after all a pathological liar.
Does not really matter, the problem is some people will take the drug without proper medical supervision
  #22994  
Old 21.05.2020, 19:43
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Does not really matter, the problem is some people will take the drug without proper medical supervision

And then still vote for him.
  #22995  
Old 21.05.2020, 20:14
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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And then still vote for him.
even from beyond the grave
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Old 21.05.2020, 21:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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And then still vote for him.
Because he's seen as a modern hero. (as ridiculous as it can be). He's a populist and many people want simple solutions to complicated problems.

Shaming them for the way they vote will never work though. As hard to believe as it may seem, many vote for him because they believe he's the better choice.

Of course, the entire world is watching America, not only those who have relatives, friends over there. But we can't predict what's going to happen, time will tell.
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Old 22.05.2020, 01:06
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

I think he's been claiming to take it because it's against the WHO's warning, he's showing them the finger big time. Now that his letter with the phony reproaches has been sent and become public there's no longer a reason, so he pretends to stop taking it.

I'm pretty sure he never took the drug. Because (temporary) hair loss is a possible side effect.
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Old 22.05.2020, 09:03
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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because he's seen as a modern hero. (as ridiculous as it can be). He's a populist and many people want simple solutions to complicated problems.

Shaming them for the way they vote will never work though. As hard to believe as it may seem, many vote for him because they believe he's the better choice.

Of course, the entire world is watching america, not only those who have relatives, friends over there. But we can't predict what's going to happen, time will tell.
This is why Trump loves photos like this one in Michigan Ford factory;"The warrior President surrounded by the effete masked elite".

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Old 22.05.2020, 09:11
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Hmmm?
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Defense lawyers look to reopen cases where Tara Reade testified as an expert.
Reade stated under oath she had an undergraduate degree that her college said she never earned.
Source

Not a good moment for her veracity to be questioned?
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Old 22.05.2020, 09:22
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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This is why Trump loves photos like this one in Michigan Ford factory;"The warrior President surrounded by the effete masked elite".

Attachment 139477

Trump says on the video that he was wearing the mask before but took it off for the press moment.


The guy in the background: does he use his hand as a mask or is it a facepalm?
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