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View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
Yes 61 27.35%
No 162 72.65%
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  #4381  
Old 10.02.2017, 13:46
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Of course not, but it gives them the right to apply and go through the same vetting process as everybody else and not be the subject of a blanket ban.
I’m just happy that we can agree they have no rights under the US constitution whilst they're still in their own countries. That's one fallacy we can now bury.
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Old 10.02.2017, 14:14
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I’m just happy that we can agree they have no rights under the US constitution whilst they're still in their own countries. That's one fallacy we can now bury.
The discussion about rights under the US constitution applies to US immigrants and the way that holders of US visas are handled; not to random Iraqis living in Baghdad.

You should read the original instead of alarmist newspapers and blogs.
If we look at the Appeal court report
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Washington alleged that the Executive Order unconstitutionally and illegally stranded its [US] residents abroad, split their families, restricted their travel, and damaged the State’s economy and public universities in violation o
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First, section 3(c) denies re-entry to certain lawful permanent residents and non-immigrant visaholders without constitutionally sufficient notice and an opportunity to respond.
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Second, section 3(c) prohibits certain lawful permanent residents and non-immigrant visaholders from exercising their separate and independent constitutionally protected liberty interests in travelling abroad and thereafter re-entering the United States.
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  #4383  
Old 10.02.2017, 14:19
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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There's the overall issue with any proactive rules: They intend to hinder the unwanted action before it happens. Of course, that allows for a lot of criticism which will just go in circles. I would like to think that Obama's regime selected these countries because of intel suggesting risk and threat. The argument that 'well no one every attacked on the US soil from these countries therefore they are safe' is not a strong one at all. Also since the stricter rules were put in place, we also don't have a lot of data on how many (if any) potential attacks they hindered.
Such rules are a lose-lose situation for an unpopular politician: Do nothing and be criticized if something happens, Do something and be criticized that the rules are useless because nothing happened.
" Also since the stricter rules were put in place, we also don't have a lot of data on how many (if any) potential attacks they hindered." If this information was relevant the Govt. should have submitted it to the Appeal Court in time last Monday, what a bunch of losers.

My whole impression of this ban business is the original EO was prepared too hastily and hence incorrectly.
And then the Appeals Court was pushed to handle the appeal quickly although the Govt. was clearly not adequately prepared.
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Old 10.02.2017, 14:42
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Flynn discussed sanctions with Russian envoy before Trump took office, officials say
Michael Flynn’s contact with the Russian ambassador was interpreted by some senior U.S. officials as an inappropriate, potentially illegal signal to the Kremlin that it could expect a reprieve from sanctions imposed by the Obama administration.

Source

According to the article Flynn is now no longer denying discussing sanctions instead he says "I cannot remember"

Also the article claims the FBI are still investigating.

Will Trump eventually be found to have the most corrupt team of any President ever or will the allegations all be found groundless; Cath we need a poll
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  #4385  
Old 10.02.2017, 14:52
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The concept of stronger vetting and stricter border security is what Americans seem to want. He could have slowed down and come out a real winner had he worked this within the system.
Exactly but certain elements of society label anyone who makes this point as a "libtard" or a "snowflake".
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Old 10.02.2017, 15:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Exactly. Don't give him any more ideas.

The execution / implementation of this has been a train wreck.

But

The concept of stronger vetting and stricter border security is what Americans seem to want. He could have slowed down and come out a real winner had he worked this within the system.
He already is. The way he does it helps to polarize America into one group (the masses) who support more controls, and a second group (the libtards) who basically anyway oppose everything Trump stands for.

By doing it this way, he reinforces the marginalization of the libtards which probably will become useful in the future when it comes to him pushing something that is really unpopular: the libtards will fight it and then there will be more reluctance on the 'masses' side since there will by then have been ingrained an 'us vs them' attitude.

Trump is smarter than the libtards realise. The libtards are playing the game Trump wants them to play.
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  #4387  
Old 10.02.2017, 15:18
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Can Trump actually read?



Granted this is from a known liberal/progressive commentator and is somewhat speculative, but hey, anything to wind up the Trumpeteers .
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  #4388  
Old 10.02.2017, 15:20
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Exactly but certain elements of society label anyone who makes this point as a "libtard" or a "snowflake".
But only those elements who are unable to construct a logical and robust argument.
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  #4389  
Old 10.02.2017, 15:22
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He already is. The way he does it helps to polarize America into one group (the masses) who support more controls, and a second group (the libtards) who basically anyway oppose everything Trump stands for.

By doing it this way, he reinforces the marginalization of the libtards which probably will become useful in the future when it comes to him pushing something that is really unpopular: the libtards will fight it and then there will be more reluctance on the 'masses' side since there will by then have been ingrained an 'us vs them' attitude.

Trump is smarter than the libtards realise. The libtards are playing the game Trump wants them to play.
Nah, he would have tweeted that in caps if he'd thought of that.

Acting like a total unpredictable knob to lull the masses into a false sense of security is one thing but he's either giving this an Oscar-worthy performance with scrupulously risk-managed control of it or he is indeed simply a knee-jerk and slightly unhinged knob.
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  #4390  
Old 10.02.2017, 15:23
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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But only those elements who are unable to construct a logical and robust argument.
I think you've misspelt 'able'
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  #4391  
Old 10.02.2017, 15:27
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He already is. The way he does it helps to polarize America into one group (the masses) who support more controls, and a second group (the libtards) who basically anyway oppose everything Trump stands for.

By doing it this way, he reinforces the marginalization of the libtards which probably will become useful in the future when it comes to him pushing something that is really unpopular: the libtards will fight it and then there will be more reluctance on the 'masses' side since there will by then have been ingrained an 'us vs them' attitude.

Trump is smarter than the libtards realise. The libtards are playing the game Trump wants them to play.
So long as he keeps losing court cases he will not be able to achieve much?
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  #4392  
Old 10.02.2017, 15:59
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

More 4D chess to fool the libtards: https://www.ft.com/content/40825e36-...f-061b01e23655

Trump backs ‘One China’ policy in first presidential call with Xi

Step 1: Needlessly escalate tensions with China.
Step 2: Come back crawling to prior China-imposed status quo.
Step 3: ....
Step 4: Profit?

The Art of the Deal™
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Old 10.02.2017, 16:42
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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...I'm wondering if a British passport holder with numerous recent (civillian) stamps from one of the banned countries will be questioned at all.
As mentioned earlier, yes - but keep in mind not all the questioning is related to Trump's order. Obama's 2015 order is still in place, and it calls for extra questioning of anyone that's visited those 7 countries (not just citizens, and no special exceptions for certain religions). Your friends would probably fall under Obama's order.

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Must admit I am surprised; I thought the plaintiff case was good but I did not expect the judges to decide against the Govt.
I expected at least a split court based on the questioning.

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He is in an interesting situation now.

If he pushed for a quick Supreme Court decision then it is likely to split 4-4 which will mean lose!

If he waits for his new SC nominee to be appointed that is likely to take a long time then he will look weak and a loser?
The order was only in effect for 90 days anyway. I think he's so arrogant that he'll take it to SCOTUS immediately, in addition to blowing up Twitter. It's possible Gorsuch could get approved in time to hear the case, but I think he'd have to recuse himself because the president that appointed him is part of the case. I'm not a lawyer, tho.

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...The problem where your argument falls down is that Trump has already said he doesn't need intel. He doesn't talk to experts because he knows everything already, he goes by "gut feel" or whatever...
I seem to recall in one TV interview he actually said he talks to himself to get answers.

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...He could have slowed down and come out a real winner had he worked this within the system.
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...libtards...libtards...libtards...'us vs them'...libtards...
Well, you've got the "us vs them" part right but to dismiss anyone who opposes anything put forth by Trump as simply a "libtard" is being shortsighted.

I have plenty of conservative friends that voted for Trump but who are not happy about how the ban was written and implemented. The idea you think a "leader" who pits people against each other is a "winner" is a bit sad.
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  #4394  
Old 10.02.2017, 16:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...47626414477312

"The failing @nytimes does major FAKE NEWS China story saying "Mr.Xi has not spoken to Mr. Trump since Nov.14." We spoke at length yesterday"

The first sentence of the story mentions yesterday's call.

BTW, the NYT has more subscribers than ever and their stock is up 20% since the election.

A winning temperament. He knows how to win.
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Old 10.02.2017, 16:58
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...47626414477312

"The failing @nytimes does major FAKE NEWS China story saying "Mr.Xi has not spoken to Mr. Trump since Nov.14." We spoke at length yesterday"

The first sentence of the story mentions yesterday's call.

BTW, the NYT has more subscribers than ever and their stock is up 20% since the election.

A winning temperament. He knows how to win.
Oh God...he has serious reading comprehension issues.

Best answer:
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  #4396  
Old 10.02.2017, 17:22
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Well, you've got the "us vs them" part right but to dismiss anyone who opposes anything put forth by Trump as simply a "libtard" is being shortsighted.
What does my head in is the use of 'libtard', particularly coming from a fellow Brit who should know better. Having been back in the UK for two weeks, I've asked quite a few friends (all of whom are professional people) how people would respond to any allusion that they're a retard, even using the term 'libtard'. Now Phos groaned me for this earlier in the thread, but the general response to my question has been ranging from...
"What the hell's that?" through to "WTF?!!!" to "Oooo! Now that's how to start a fight!" to "Ouch! You'll be lucky if you don't get headbutted for that!" So if any of EF's American members are wandering over to the UK (particularly Manchester/Liverpool way) anytime soon, please...please do not use that term in conversation. It really isn't well received.
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  #4397  
Old 10.02.2017, 17:28
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...47626414477312

"The failing @nytimes does major FAKE NEWS China story saying "Mr.Xi has not spoken to Mr. Trump since Nov.14." We spoke at length yesterday"

The first sentence of the story mentions yesterday's call.

BTW, the NYT has more subscribers than ever and their stock is up 20% since the election.

A winning temperament. He knows how to win.
"BTW, the NYT has more subscribers than ever and their stock is up 20% since the election." It is as Henry Ford is alleged to have said "I do not care what people write about me so long as they spell my name right.

The theory is that the more he writes about the N Times then the more the name sticks in people's minds but they soon lose the context; so the effect is opposite to what Trump presumably wishes?
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Old 10.02.2017, 17:31
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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What does my head in is the use of 'libtard', particularly coming from a fellow Brit who should know better. Having been back in the UK for two weeks, I've asked quite a few friends (all of whom are professional people) how people would respond to any allusion that they're a retard, even using the term 'libtard'. Now Phos groaned me for this earlier in the thread, but the general response to my question has been ranging from...
"What the hell's that?" through to "WTF?!!!" to "Oooo! Now that's how to start a fight!" to "Ouch! You'll be lucky if you don't get headbutted for that!" So if any of EF's American members are wandering over to the UK (particularly Manchester/Liverpool way) anytime soon, please...please do not use that term in conversation. It really isn't well received.
I think it's mainly used in conjunction with some hyperbolic interpretation of a perfectly reasonable view (but generally opposing) on something. For example:

"Trump would be better off modifying the immigration process and streamlining it by incorporating more resourceful background checks rather than a sledge-hammer type approach which is expensive, open to easily winnable legal action and basically counter-productive as far as national security goes."

Which then goes into the ACME right-wing translating gadget and is heard as:

"Trump should let all the starving children from Syria in as well as anyone who looks like a terrorist, then give them a job and a home, preferably by taking them from good, hard-working Americans. Oh and make them give up their guns and pay more taxes, while you're at it."

Don't buy ACME stock...

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Old 10.02.2017, 17:42
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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As mentioned earlier, yes - but keep in mind not all the questioning is related to Trump's order. Obama's 2015 order is still in place, and it calls for extra questioning of anyone that's visited those 7 countries (not just citizens, and no special exceptions for certain religions). Your friends would probably fall under Obama's order.

I expected at least a split court based on the questioning.

The order was only in effect for 90 days anyway. I think he's so arrogant that he'll take it to SCOTUS immediately, in addition to blowing up Twitter. It's possible Gorsuch could get approved in time to hear the case, but I think he'd have to recuse himself because the president that appointed him is part of the case. I'm not a lawyer, tho.

I seem to recall in one TV interview he actually said he talks to himself to get answers.

Well, you've got the "us vs them" part right but to dismiss anyone who opposes anything put forth by Trump as simply a "libtard" is being shortsighted.

I have plenty of conservative friends that voted for Trump but who are not happy about how the ban was written and implemented. The idea you think a "leader" who pits people against each other is a "winner" is a bit sad.
"I expected at least a split court based on the questioning." Me too but I thought best case would be 2-1 supporting Govt.

"The order was only in effect for 90 days anyway" Good point, I overlooked that.
I assume people will soon start asking what progress he has made with improving the vetting process.

I keep hoping the new Attorney General Jeff Sessions will chime in to support the judiciary but so far he has only said "the US must bring an end to illegal immigration, as he was sworn in at the White House.
The US attorney general also said: "We need to end this lawlessness that threatens the public safety, pulls down the wages of working Americans."
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Old 10.02.2017, 17:49
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Epic Trump failure

Trump Tweet
Quote:
LAWFARE: "Remarkably, in the entire opinion, the panel did not bother even to cite this (the) statute." A disgraceful decision!
I had no clue what LAWFARE is so I googled and found;
Trump cited a law journal article criticizing an aspect of the ruling by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which said the ban would violate the due process rights of travelers without a sufficient national security justification.

The author of the Lawfare article Trump cited, Benjamin Wittes, tweeted that the president distorted his argument and he himself supports the decision.

Quote:
You decide whether the POTUS is quoting me in context. Here's the article. For the record, I support the decision
You really could not make this stuff up

Last edited by marton; 10.02.2017 at 23:52.
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