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marton · #**4441** 13.02.2017, 11:02

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	it's their words. i'm using their words, it's a circular usage. but happy if you come up with an alternative short replacement. He's winning the game of consolidating his power and increasing his influence. Why are the libtards so blind. It's like they are playing chess but seeing only number of pieces and not the board on which they move. Case in point: Let me put this scenario to you. Trump orders that the judges order be ignored. What are the chances that people will comply and enforce the ban one way or another? Substantially and uncomfortably higher than 0%, I'd say. Give him a couple more years, and more crazy but populist proposals that are blocked by the courts... I can easily see him being able to not only fully consolidate his power in his first term, but succeed in neutralizing the checks on his power from other branches of government.

"Trump orders that the judges order be ignored" then this would be a prima facie case of contempt of court leading to fines and eventually imprisonment. Likely any agencies so ordered are roughly 50/50 Democrat and Republican so the level of obedience would be patchy.
Consequences could be increasing civil unrest leaving Congress with the options of impeachment or watching the US fall apart

3Wishes · #**4442** 13.02.2017, 13:21

Interesting piece (a bit long, but a good read) about Trump's incessant lying, by journalist Andrew Sullivan:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ng-donald.html

and the CNN interview with Sullivan:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/12/medi...lth/index.html

Whether one is liberal or conservative or somewhere in between, we should all be concerned about the volume of lies that come from this administration and the dangerous precedent it sets if allowed to continue.

#**4443** 13.02.2017, 13:23

Sensible article here from Daniel Hannan on the immigration ban.

Liberals are attacking Trump's ban in the worst possible way

Phil_MCR · #**4444** 13.02.2017, 13:48

	Quote:	marton
	"Trump orders that the judges order be ignored"

for those lacking imagination, Trump doesn't necessarily have to put it like that. he can say 'let's vet them VERY CAREFULLY'. the measures can even be taken before they even arrive and prevent people from boarding the plane in the first place.

#**4445** 13.02.2017, 13:55

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	for those lacking imagination, Trump doesn't necessarily have to put it like that. he can say 'let's vet them VERY CAREFULLY'. the measures can even be taken before they even arrive and prevent people from boarding the plane in the first place.

You mean, vet them very carefully, just as the Obama administration had been doing under rules promulgated a couple of years ago -- for immigrants from the same countries targeted by Trump's Executive Order?

Russkov · #**4446** 13.02.2017, 14:00

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Sensible article here from Daniel Hannan on the immigration ban. Liberals are attacking Trump's ban in the worst possible way

His concern is adorable and I'm sure 100% genuine.

Anyway, the condescending projection aside, to answer his points: you can do both, attack it through legal means and protest. Doing the former and rational debate will only get you so far, as the last years have proved. Obama issued less executive orders per year of his presidency and deported more illegal immigrants than any president before him. That didn't prevent him from being attacked on those grounds. I'm sure most on the left would be glad to trade their hysteria for the right giving up their relentless bullshit, but none of that's gonna happen.

marton · #**4447** 13.02.2017, 14:04

	Quote:	3Wishes
	Interesting piece (a bit long, but a good read) about Trump's incessant lying, by journalist Andrew Sullivan: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ng-donald.html and the CNN interview with Sullivan: http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/12/medi...lth/index.html Whether one is liberal or conservative or somewhere in between, we should all be concerned about the volume of lies that come from this administration and the dangerous precedent it sets if allowed to continue.

Yes, this whole business of Trumps lies is serious and getting "seriouser"! Take the example of Neil Gorsuch where Trump has more than once denied he said what was published.

The elephant in the room is that Neil Gorsuch has not made a denial!

The smaller elephant is that Neil Gorsuch has also not confirmed what he said, which makes one wonder how independent he will be as a Supreme Court justice.

Whether Trump is really unbalanced or drunk with power only time will tell.

nigelr · #**4448** 13.02.2017, 14:06

I don't think Trump is a "bad man" and he is doing what he thinks is right. The problem is that he is a complete and utter liar, and you can't negotiate with a liar who refuses to give ground or acknowledge that he is wrong.

Protest is wasted on Trump, he is too thick skinned to even listen a any arguments no matter how many millions of people are trying to tell him.

marton · #**4449** 13.02.2017, 14:13

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	for those lacking imagination, Trump doesn't necessarily have to put it like that. he can say 'let's vet them VERY CAREFULLY'. the measures can even be taken before they even arrive and prevent people from boarding the plane in the first place.

"For those lacking imagination"

For those unable to keep up with the news

Trump already said 'let's vet them VERY CAREFULLY' after the freeze on the ban was announced

	Quote:
	Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump Feb 5 I have instructed Homeland Security to check people coming into our country VERY CAREFULLY. The courts are making the job very difficult!

Your question was "Trump orders that the judges order be ignored. " now you are trying to change your question!

#**4450** 13.02.2017, 14:14

	Quote:	nigelr
	Protest is wasted on Trump, he is too thick skinned* to even listen a any arguments no matter how many millions of people are trying to tell him.*

Are you talking about the same Trump that the rest of us are discussing?

I think "bone-headed" is the adjective you're looking for.

marton · #**4451** 13.02.2017, 14:16

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Sensible article here from Daniel Hannan on the immigration ban. Liberals are attacking Trump's ban in the worst possible way

It is sensible but he fails to mention all these points were already covered in the submissions made to the Appeals Court.

curley · #**4452** 13.02.2017, 14:16

	Quote:	3Wishes
	Interesting piece (a bit long, but a good read) about Trump's incessant lying, by journalist Andrew Sullivan: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ng-donald.html and the CNN interview with Sullivan: http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/12/medi...lth/index.html Whether one is liberal or conservative or somewhere in between, we should all be concerned about the volume of lies that come from this administration and the dangerous precedent it sets if allowed to continue.

I totally agree with Andrew Sullivan. And I have mentioned it before on EF.
I was told - also here on EF - that Americans running for presidents don't have to be vetted, neither physically nor mentally. And this in a place like the US!

I've come to the conclusion - or the only possible explanation in my eyes - that Trump is a mad man. Yet not mad enough to be a genious.

#**4453** 13.02.2017, 14:16

	Quote:
	Are you talking about the same Trump that the rest of us are discussing? I think "bone-headed" is the adjective you're looking for.

Thin skinned, closed-minded.

marton · #**4454** 13.02.2017, 14:27

	Quote:	curley
	I totally agree with Andrew Sullivan. And I have mentioned it before on EF. I was told - also here on EF - that Americans running for presidents don't have to be vetted, neither physically nor mentally. And this in a place like the US! I've come to the conclusion - or the only possible explanation in my eyes - that Trump is a mad man. Yet not mad enough to be a genious.

The key question is "does he believe his lies?".

Phil_MCR · #**4455** 13.02.2017, 15:04

	Quote:	marton
	"For those lacking imagination" For those unable to keep up with the news Trump already said 'let's vet them VERY CAREFULLY' after the freeze on the ban was announced Your question was "Trump orders that the judges order be ignored. " now you are trying to change your question!

sheesh. where do you think i got the all caps for those two words from??

exactly. he's basically signalling people to ignore it in other words.

but as he continues to polarise and purge people not loyal to him, he will be able to overtly override the courts.

Blueangel · #**4456** 13.02.2017, 15:11

	Quote:	nigelr
	I don't think Trump is a "bad man" and he is doing what he thinks is right. The problem is that he is a complete and utter liar, and you can't negotiate with a liar who refuses to give ground or acknowledge that he is wrong.

I don't entirely agree.
My issue with Trump was highlighted whilst watching Rubio on the Senate floor last week. Trump hasn't done that part of the apprenticeship for the top job, so in that much, he's lacking. He's a businessman with an Economics degree and probably excellent at delegating, but he has little grasp of the law, due process and the people he's delegating to...Hmmm...

I believe Trump has huge trust issues amd respects strength more than integrity (which I believe will be his downfall) and instead of tackling issues with a "How does this work?" approach, he's going in with "This is how it should work" as his start point.

marton · #**4457** 13.02.2017, 15:59

For amusement only

	Quote:
	The staff of the National Security Council is “struggl[ing]” to turn Donald Trump’s tweets into actual policy, according to a New York Times report released Sunday. The paper described the atmosphere at the NSC as “chaotic and anxious,” and said that officials “get up in the morning, read President Trump’s Twitter posts and struggle to make policy to fit them. Among other disturbing measures, staff members have reportedly turned to encrypted messaging services to communicate with one another, fearing the Trump administration may begin monitoring their phone calls and emails to combat leaks. While the NSC used to suggest policy to Obama in 3-6 page reports, the staff has now been told that they must keep it at one page, and be sure to include graphics and maps. - “The president likes maps,” an official explained. If Sunday’s report is accurate, maps, graphics and unhinged tweets now dictate the foreign policy of the world’s greatest military power. What could possibly go wrong?

Source

3Wishes · #**4458** 13.02.2017, 16:20

	Quote:	marton
	For amusement only "“The president likes maps,” an official explained." Source

Cool. Here's a map Trump can play with when Twitter is broken. Instead of coloring, he can fill in the country names and then have Secretary DeVos check it for accuracy!

Phil_MCR · #**4459** 13.02.2017, 16:27

	Quote:	Blueangel
	instead of tackling issues with a "How does this work?" approach, he's going in with "This is how it should work" as his start point.

which to be fair isn't an entirely bad thing...

Medea Fleecestealer · #**4460** 13.02.2017, 16:38

	Quote:	3Wishes
	Cool. Here's a map Trump can play with when Twitter is broken. Instead of coloring, he can fill in the country names and then have Secretary DeVos check it for accuracy!

Do you reckon they'd manage it in 4-8 years?