How would you define nationalism?

Do you despise the idea of a nation preserving their culture and people taking pride in their nations achievements?

Define "culture".


Define "achievements".

You've raised this dubious subject, so how would you define it?

One of the mosty heated debates I ever witnessed as a student was... 'Can you be patriotic and not be a Royalist?' That's just one for KK to think on as I don't wish to derail the thread any further. The most heated, explosive debate I ever witnessed was based upon the biggest news story at the time... 'Gdansk shipyard workers and Solidarność - Patriots or traitors?'

Honestly think any debate on patriotism and nationalism belongs in a thread of it's own, maybe even a subsection of the forum on it's own. It's a huge subject and one I shy away from.

I don't see how a true patriot can be a royalist.


But, as you say, that's a debate for another thread...

This is false equivalency, binary bullshit. If i don't agree with strict nationalism, my country right or wrong stuff, then I must despise it. Too simplistic.

First of all, what is US culture? Truth be told, indigineous Native American culture. But we've taken that away.

When people talk about preserving US culture, I think it means the "culture" of the white christian. But the US is made up of many cultures - that's what makes it so great. when you try to homogenize this, it goes to a big bland mess. People call the US a melting pot. But really, it should be a very chunky stew.

And yeah, I am proud of my nation's achievements - in science, art, literature. I don't care about sports or war. I'm proud that so many people are able to get an education. At least, up until now.

But I don't think the US is the best in everything, nor can it be. It needs work. It is not taking care of the most vulnerable citizens.

And the US cannot exist in isolation. It should not be the policeman of the world, but it is a partner in peaceful coexistence.

What on earth does 'patriotic' mean - pray tell. Your description KK is probably very different to mine.

As for Trump, I am sorry KK, but I will trust Stephen Hawkin's opinion over yours any day- even a month of Sundays.

Just catching up on Hawking's interview on 'Good Morning Britain' today. He thinks Trump should fire Scott Pruitt from the Environment Protection Agency.
http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritai...tephen-hawking

Totally. Unfortunately Hawking is too busy for the EF. Perhaps we should follow his example. More physics for everyone too!

Those may be the things you often don't realise you have until they're gone and its too late.

Here on the Ef we like to revel in recalling the good things we left behind in our own countries, you know like brown sugar and real ale and being able to flush the loo after 10 and tikka massala not being stared at on the bus.

But then we can go back, but we don't because deep down inside we know our utopia is an imagined one. So we stay here in the diaspora where the good things are as we want to remember them.

But if those things ceased to exist, not because we moved away, and not ebcause of gradual change, but because they were abruptly pulled from under our feet, we would rightly be angry, no?

This in my view is nationalism. It's an ideal. It doesn't always totally root in reality. But it's what under ideal circumstances we would unite behind and fight for, or at least imagine we are fighting for.

Going back on topic, someone sent this to me today. I found it rather amusing.

"What on earth does 'patriotic' mean" Not only that, people here are discussing whether patriots are extremely patriotic or simply patriotic when nobody knows what the difference is

Well for the subject we're discussing i'll try to keep it simple:

Culture- a way of life for a particular nation.

Achievements: What the nation has managed to accomplish as individuals and as a group.

A form of patriotism where you're proud of your nations achievements, where you have the will to preserve your culture and believe in the right to self determination. The belief that a nations decisions should benefit their own people and interests first and foremost.

(I'm aware of the many negative connotations associated with nationalism and also that many people have different definitions/opinions of it. That's why I was asking for her definition as she said she despised it)

Fair enough.


Except... I come from a relatively small nation of a mere 40 million. Yet I have very little in common with quite a lot of my compatriots. Some of them like going to watch dog racing. I don't. Some of them go fox hunting. I don't. Some of them enjoy going to the theatre. I don't. Some of them enjoy watching the football. I don't.


In fact, the only English people with whom I have much in common at all are a very small subset of lower-middle-class people from the Midlands.


So where's this "English" way of life? And how would it translate to a big country like France or Germany or the United States?


Sounds like a load of cobblers to me.

Some people try to drive a wedge between patriotism and nationalism, as in one being good and the other being bad.

But in my view that's just smartassery. We are patriots because we love our country and our country is a good one deserving to be loved. Our enemies are nationalists because they love their country although their country is just a stinking heap of goosecr#p not worthy of being loved. Hence nationalism is misguided and patriotism is good.

That sore of argument is ultimately trying to create a distinction for purposes of manipulation, not of seeking the truth.

Ultimately, its the atheists version of saying we are right because God is on our side.

I can vouch for that. Several years ago, I was on a familiarity trip to a number of West Midlands hotels which were close to our client bases in the area. Usually, the evening would be dinner at the hotel and an excursion that gives a taste of activities in the area, and the hotel we stayed at on the Saturday night took us to the dog races.

Patrioticism and nationalism are highly subjective. Leaders and governments try to whip us up into a commonality of feeling because it serves a purpose, but the reality is that we're all different.

You are conflating two points to say if I am not nationalistic that I despise culture! And also you mistakenly think that culture is a static monolith. Culture includes a wide range including language, norms rule, and institutions etc etc equalling ways of life. Culture is a living thing.

how can you preserve culture? You mean cultural institutions don't you?

i can be patriotic and not nationalistic. (I don't really identify as either but I was saying that to call someone un-patriotic seems emotionally loaded ie akin to traitorous.)

My definition: Nationalistic means identifying oneself to a group based on country of birth (a cultural good) and everyone is an "other" (bad). So if I were a nationalist I would see someone who doesn't look like me and I think "he/she is not of my country".

Both are proud positions upholding origin with geography through culture.

If someone criticised me for being not nationalistic I would say good. because I am not nationalistic I'm not ever going to criticise a country for being proud of it's culture. As a liberal, I will be critical of a culture that limits freedoms which I think (believe) are important to expression. (But I'm inn the left so you'll find inherent contradictions!!) If someone criticised me for being unpatriotic I would ask them for proof of when I did something against my own country.

It might be intellectualising (it's kinda my academic and personal interest) or splitting hairs to some but I think there is a important difference.

yes, culture is a living thing. But it is also a point of reference. Culture can also be misused for political ends, and especially institutionalized culture is at risk of this. Culture can also be attacked, ridiculed and destroyed, again for political ends. Maybe to deny that a certain minorty or group has value or even has a distinct existence as a definable group. Maybe because elements of that culture cause offence to the rulers.

So generally when culture is used or manipulated, its time to be careful.

This is your definition. You are assuming that because something is good, something else must be bad. Because I am proud of something I must despise something else. Because I love something i must hate something else. This is a very dichotomous view.

The bottom line would be that patriots are good people and nationalists are bad people. Isn't that putting people into boxes, often arbitrarily without looking at the details?

For me the difference is a far more subtle one. A patriot loves their country (patria, Latin for fatherland, place where your ancestors are from), whereas a nationalist loves their nation (nation, place of birth, where YOU were born). So for example, an Irish American can be proud of both Ireland and America, without there necessarily being a conflict of loyalty.

So now Trump is celebrating that Fox news said only 43 percent of voters approved of the job the president was doing
Big burst of Trump tweets this morning; seems to be panicking

Comey's presentation now live to House Intelligence committee, he said

Oooppss !!

Comey's statement in full

Also from Comey