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View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
Yes 61 27.35%
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  #7521  
Old 24.06.2017, 22:53
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Why couldn't you support an apprenticeship program? That's the meat and potatoes of CH & D success?
Apprenticeship is a great idea. But that's one bit of the Education agenda. I don't trust DeVos to pull it off. And I don't trust her to ensure that such programs are distributed and offered fairly across the board.
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  #7522  
Old 24.06.2017, 23:07
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Apprenticeship is a great idea. But that's one bit of the Education agenda. I don't trust DeVos to pull it off. And I don't trust her to ensure that such programs are distributed and offered fairly across the board.

Oh come on - even Benihof from Salesforce signs off on apprenticeships. I doubt the secretary will have more pull than from the private sector
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  #7523  
Old 24.06.2017, 23:32
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Oh come on - even Benihof from Salesforce signs off on apprenticeships. I doubt the secretary will have more pull than from the private sector

Sure. But the secretary and her department have to implement programs in high schools, workplaces to generate those 5 million apprenticeships. Signing off is one thing....implementation, organization is another. Should the private sector run apprenticeships in public schools? I don't know. But, enough of this for tonight.
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  #7524  
Old 25.06.2017, 00:29
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Warning: The following is based on personal anecdotes and not a representative sample.

I've been having lots of conversations about apprenticeships with folks back home, as many are keen to hear about the Swiss model.

Based on these conversations, though, I am a bit worried about how implementation of a widespread apprenticeship program in the US in the form that educators and communitiy leaders I have spoken to seem to view such programs could affect the US going forward.

You see, the Swiss system seems to work largely because there seems to be a cultural view that an apprenticeship is as valued a path as other educational routes.

We do not have that view in the US - and therein lies what worries me. In my conversations with folks in the US a rather ugly side to the promotion of apprenticeships consistently crops up.

You see, every single promoter of apprenticeships in the US I have spoken to is keen on such programs for other people's children. Their own children, of course, will go to university. Of course.

This isn't overt elitism - it's worse. It's so bone deep that it's unconscious.

America is facing a very dangerous moment. The disdain, largely unconscious, of those who have have for those who have not is a large part of what brought us to this crisis point.

Education has always been the great leveler in American society. I am worried that we are on the verge of losing that. In all this talk of 'university isn't for everybody' I see a (perhaps unconscious) darker motivation behind disuading a large swathe of our young people from pursuing higher education. 'They' don't need to read Shakespeare, Aristotle, Newton. No, that's for 'us'.

I'm not saying that an emphasis on apprenticeships as an alternative path is the wrong way to go, far from it. The idea certainly has merit. Heck, back my grandfather's day the Chicago tech (trade) schools were something to be proud of.

(Note to Betsy DeVos: Yep, public schools. )

I simply am feeling uncomfortable with what I see as a bias underlying these conversations today.

I remain open to various ideas and changes... but I firmly believe that educational opportunity is what made the American Dream possible, and I want to see those opportunities available to future generations.
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  #7525  
Old 25.06.2017, 00:32
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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That's an interesting historical question. A good example being Winston Churchill: hopeless, but won a war.
... you mean he took a huge gamble on the weather forecast that could have cost 1000s and 1000s of lives- and turned lucky ?
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  #7526  
Old 25.06.2017, 03:41
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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How do y'all like double-taxation?
Strange question. Are you stating that America double-taxes its citizens? In what way? All I can see is a top-up on local taxation to equalise with American tax payable,
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  #7527  
Old 25.06.2017, 07:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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To your ignoarant pun: it means Citizen Based Taxation. Only the US and Eritrea imposed it on their citizens.
Not every single person can possibly know every single abbreviation, acronym etc. all the time

Some abbreviations have more than one meaning...
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  #7528  
Old 25.06.2017, 08:09
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Strange question. Are you stating that America double-taxes its citizens? In what way? All I can see is a top-up on local taxation to equalise with American tax payable,
No, it's not that simple. Certain investments and participation in pensions, etc can be taxed "double" because what is not taxed abroad is taxed in the US. And similar investments in the US are not taxed in the US. So you coukd pay tax on the money invested and pay tax again on the money when you take it out.

maybe double taxation is not a rigorous description. and perhaps my discription is sloppy.
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  #7529  
Old 25.06.2017, 08:15
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Warning: The following is based on personal anecdotes and not a representative sample.

I've been having lots of conversations about apprenticeships with folks back home, as many are keen to hear about the Swiss model.

Based on these conversations, though, I am a bit worried about how implementation of a widespread apprenticeship program in the US in the form that educators and communitiy leaders I have spoken to seem to view such programs could affect the US going forward.

You see, the Swiss system seems to work largely because there seems to be a cultural view that an apprenticeship is as valued a path as other educational routes.

We do not have that view in the US - and therein lies what worries me. In my conversations with folks in the US a rather ugly side to the promotion of apprenticeships consistently crops up.

You see, every single promoter of apprenticeships in the US I have spoken to is keen on such programs for other people's children. Their own children, of course, will go to university. Of course.

This isn't overt elitism - it's worse. It's so bone deep that it's unconscious.

America is facing a very dangerous moment. The disdain, largely unconscious, of those who have have for those who have not is a large part of what brought us to this crisis point.

Education has always been the great leveler in American society. I am worried that we are on the verge of losing that. In all this talk of 'university isn't for everybody' I see a (perhaps unconscious) darker motivation behind disuading a large swathe of our young people from pursuing higher education. 'They' don't need to read Shakespeare, Aristotle, Newton. No, that's for 'us'.

I'm not saying that an emphasis on apprenticeships as an alternative path is the wrong way to go, far from it. The idea certainly has merit. Heck, back my grandfather's day the Chicago tech (trade) schools were something to be proud of.

(Note to Betsy DeVos: Yep, public schools. )

I simply am feeling uncomfortable with what I see as a bias underlying these conversations today.

I remain open to various ideas and changes... but I firmly believe that educational opportunity is what made the American Dream possible, and I want to see those opportunities available to future generations.
yes, thank you for reframing this. Exactly
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  #7530  
Old 25.06.2017, 09:00
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

I also believe that education should be available to all. But then you have cultures that turn edu into a monstrous money making machine, where kids (indeed infantilized...the hysterical depts for social life, the security, the absolute need for comfort, the lack of personal responsibility for learning) are left with the necessity to do x-numbers of theoretical degrees even if they want to apply for a simple job which leaves them at the end maybe educated, and mostly in debts. And maybe with a job.

Would not an apprenticeship system armour them with more practical competences that the young people have notoriously difficult time getting? I think it might actually start treating students correspondingly to their real age, and not baby them.

I think US edu system needs a different reform than excluding the idea of an apprenticeship just because there is a potential for classism. I think it needs to stop mincing knowledge into tiny easy to sell, expensive modules to make this spoon-feeding business last for as long as possible...and step up the high school system so not everybody absolutely has to have a college degree. I do not think the issue is as simple as a society discriminating against folks without uni degrees. I think society might actually discriminate because a lot of the highschools might not be so good and a person without college is stuck with that stereotype. What people cram in highschools here is often a college program in the US.

The classism is still there, anyways, even without the apprenticeship system...for people there is still a big difference in CV if there is a uni with reputation on it, or a generic community college. The apprenticeship is not an answer to all, especially if the cerebral input is reduced, etc. etc. But one gains a headstart, in a very hard to get practical field, the cerebral stuff is up to anyone to get though a number of ways. I know the apprenticeship system is only possible through a tough early streaming, and I am not a big fan of it myself, but maybe it is that that makes people grow up with a pretty decent sense of a real life. What is now happening in the US with the cost of edu, is making it almost impossible for kids to take charge of, it too often involves their parents' funds and I do not think it is a way to maturity nor does it say anything about the quality edu they are buying.
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  #7531  
Old 25.06.2017, 09:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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No, it's not that simple. Certain investments and participation in pensions, etc can be taxed "double" because what is not taxed abroad is taxed in the US. And similar investments in the US are not taxed in the US. So you coukd pay tax on the money invested and pay tax again on the money when you take it out.

maybe double taxation is not a rigorous description. and perhaps my discription is sloppy.
Yes, I pay income tax in Switzerland and US federal income tax, even though i am completely domiciled in Switzerland. I have absolutely nothing in the US, except an annual tax return and tax bill.

There is more:

- i pay a tax accountant over chf1000 to prepare my annual tax return. For my situation it is far too complicated to do it myself
- because we file jointly, my non us spouse als pays US tax, without obtaining any rights/entitlements of a US citizen
- if you optimize your CH tax, you end up paying more US tax

Some hope: there is legistlation underway sponsored by Senator Rand to repeal facta, essentially leading to residence based taxation and fewer regulations.

Then maybe some day perhaps I, my non-us spouse, my kids will again be accepted by all CH banks, when my mortage is up for renewal or when opening a bank account.
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  #7532  
Old 25.06.2017, 09:53
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Warning: The following is based on personal anecdotes and not a representative sample.

I've been having lots of conversations about apprenticeships with folks back home, as many are keen to hear about the Swiss model.

Based on these conversations, though, I am a bit worried about how implementation of a widespread apprenticeship program in the US in the form that educators and communitiy leaders I have spoken to seem to view such programs could affect the US going forward.

You see, the Swiss system seems to work largely because there seems to be a cultural view that an apprenticeship is as valued a path as other educational routes.

We do not have that view in the US - and therein lies what worries me. In my conversations with folks in the US a rather ugly side to the promotion of apprenticeships consistently crops up.

You see, every single promoter of apprenticeships in the US I have spoken to is keen on such programs for other people's children. Their own children, of course, will go to university. Of course.

This isn't overt elitism - it's worse. It's so bone deep that it's unconscious.

America is facing a very dangerous moment. The disdain, largely unconscious, of those who have have for those who have not is a large part of what brought us to this crisis point.

Education has always been the great leveler in American society. I am worried that we are on the verge of losing that. In all this talk of 'university isn't for everybody' I see a (perhaps unconscious) darker motivation behind disuading a large swathe of our young people from pursuing higher education. 'They' don't need to read Shakespeare, Aristotle, Newton. No, that's for 'us'.

I'm not saying that an emphasis on apprenticeships as an alternative path is the wrong way to go, far from it. The idea certainly has merit. Heck, back my grandfather's day the Chicago tech (trade) schools were something to be proud of.

(Note to Betsy DeVos: Yep, public schools. )

I simply am feeling uncomfortable with what I see as a bias underlying these conversations today.

I remain open to various ideas and changes... but I firmly believe that educational opportunity is what made the American Dream possible, and I want to see those opportunities available to future generations.
Points well taken.

Here in Switzerland an apprenticeship represent the basis for the respective profession. Should one so choose, they have the opportunity to continue their education leading to additional certifications recognized / merited by the Swiss gov.. That means, one's path could be different from another, yet they have the opportunity to reach the same goal.
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  #7533  
Old 25.06.2017, 10:04
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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...
Would not an apprenticeship system armour them with more practical competences that the young people have notoriously difficult time getting? I think it might actually start treating students correspondingly to their real age, and not baby them.
...
Not to say that there aren't problems in the education system, but...

Even if the school system were reformed and improved, an apprenticeship stream would still only provide individuals with a benefit if there were jobs for them to fill, and a recruiting system which recognized those apprenticeship streams.

"Industry" moans about the lack of qualified people here to fill entry level positions too, placing the blame on the education system, and expecting the immigration authorities to open the gates.

What they're really complaining about is the lack of cheap overqualified people to fill entry level positions.
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Old 25.06.2017, 10:21
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

"The number of companies planning to export the Swiss apprenticeship model to the United States has risen sharply, US officials say.

Another 12 Swiss businesses signed on with plans to expand or create new apprenticeship programmes on American soil, which brings the total of “committed companies” to 30, the outgoing US Ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, Suzi LeVine, announced on Monday."

"The Swiss apprenticeship system combines work experience with education and is increasingly viewed as a good solution for helping young people land jobs in the United States.

US officials say the 12 Swiss companies that have agreed to participate are: Adecco Group; Autoneum Holding; benpac systems; CSL Behring AG; Franke Group, Franke Management; Logitech International; Novartis International (Sandoz); PwC Switzerland; RUAG; Sicpa; Stadler Rail; and Supra Group.

The companies will offer training and jobs in the United States in a range of fields including IT systems management, accounting, office management, engineering and electronics.

For the academic portion of the apprenticeships, most of the companies will work with local community colleges, which in the United States are mainly two-year public institutions for higher education."

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/apprenti...to-us/42844400

Sounds like win-win to me.
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  #7535  
Old 25.06.2017, 10:22
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Not to say that there aren't problems in the education system, but...

Even if the school system were reformed and improved, an apprenticeship stream would still only provide individuals with a benefit if there were jobs for them to fill, and a recruiting system which recognized those apprenticeship streams.

"Industry" moans about the lack of qualified people here to fill entry level positions too, placing the blame on the education system, and expecting the immigration authorities to open the gates.

What they're really complaining about is the lack of cheap overqualified people to fill entry level positions.
That's true, but I think it is possible to create a paradigm shift over time. But,
It is a fair amount of work and requires a good bit of thought, investment and buy in from potential employers ("industry"). I do not know if the current administation is up to the task - they are very poorly staffed and without strong leadership. Just because some rich dudes say we should have apprenticeships, they won't happen without resources and planning.

Medea's post suggests a possible method. Help from Switzerland might be very useful.

Another problem in the US is the structure of universities. They are so expensive not because of faculty, but because of the ridiculous burden of paying for nonsense administration. But that's a whole other topic......
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Old 25.06.2017, 10:28
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

As with most things in modern-day America, i fully expect there will be a distinct lack of thought, lack of investment, lack of buy-in, lots of beurocracy, and lack of basic competence. It will just go down as another good idea the americans tried to copy and just ended up creating an unfit-for-use, waste of money, ineffective black hole of public funds.

Kind of like their excuse of a public health system.
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Old 25.06.2017, 10:30
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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As with most things in modern-day America, i fully expect there will be a distinct lack of thought, lack of investment, lack of buy-in, lots of beurocracy, and lack of basic competence. It will just go down as another good idea the americans tried to copy and just ended up creating an unfit-for-use, waste of money, ineffective black hole of public funds.

Kind of like their excuse of a public health system.
I wish I could strongly disagree with you. I can't. Public health system (not insurance coverage) used to be a lot better, sadly.
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Old 25.06.2017, 10:54
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

In a system of intense and constant liability - will the public readilly accept to be "served" or "treated" by unlicensed apprentice staff, for example? People/customers are used to it here and are quite supportive..
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Old 25.06.2017, 11:01
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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In a system of intense and constant liability - will the public readilly accept to be "served" or "treated" by unlicensed apprentice staff, for example? People/customers are used to it here and are quite supportive..
They are somewhat used to it already. Student nurses, doctors, teachers are part of daily life. Depends on spervision to some extent.
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Old 25.06.2017, 11:03
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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That's true, but I think it is possible to create a paradigm shift over time. But,
It is a fair amount of work and requires a good bit of thought, investment and buy in from potential employers ("industry"). I do not know if the current administation is up to the task - they are very poorly staffed and without strong leadership. Just because some rich dudes say we should have apprenticeships, they won't happen without resources and planning.

Medea's post suggests a possible method. Help from Switzerland might be very useful.

Another problem in the US is the structure of universities. They are so expensive not because of faculty, but because of the ridiculous burden of paying for nonsense administration. But that's a whole other topic......
The paradigm shift would mean seeing that there is a problem, and looking for how the same problem is solved elsewhere... not a lot of that going on in the US, certainly not at the moment.

Part of the problem w.r.t. apprenticeships is that for generations every boat and airplane that landed from Europe brought qualified tradesmen - most industries didn't need to actively participate in teaching and training because there was ample supply. Canada is in a similar situation. Back in the '70s and '80s it was very hard to find a good apprentice position in many trades (Tool and die maker was, iirc, particularly difficult). I was very lucky to go through a very traditional apprenticeship which included mentorship and wide exposure - most friends who did the same qualification were just lower paid helping hands who got time off for classes and exams - their companies saw teaching as the responsibility of the educational system.
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