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View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
Yes 61 27.35%
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  #10001  
Old 07.12.2017, 11:42
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Do you not read the news? It's been all over it of late https://www.google.ch/search?q=saudi...hrome&ie=UTF-8

The Saudi Prince wants to increase Western investment and make Saudi a compatible and relevant Islamic force in the modern Western world, so he is aiming to make those changes and indeed seems to be actively doing so.
I'll believe it when I see it, talk is cheap. Having been to both Saudi and Iran, I know whose people I prefer.
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  #10002  
Old 07.12.2017, 12:02
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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They were very close to a deal with Arafat, but broke down at the very end with Jerusalem. He was offered the Temple Mount, but he declined.

Jerusalem was thought to be the final issue of any negotiation, to be dealt with at the very end. This is the premise of ongoing peace process. What Trump has effectively done is deal with it at the front end. Now if they want to go back to the table, they have a much better chance of closing a deal.

Trump stroked a Gordian Knot move. This tactic is described in "The Art of the Deal".
Trump recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel does not change the final issue of any peace negotiation. He is not the adjudicator here, his is just one voice among many.
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  #10003  
Old 07.12.2017, 12:06
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I don't think that Saudi Arabia is modernist nor increasingly western.
Well, they have recently introduced some (stress some, it's not exactly Sweden yet) progressive laws (e.g. less female dress code enforcement, women able to drive) so that is literally the definition of modernising and becoming more Western. It's still a fundamentalist shithole, but a fundamentalist shithole moving slowly in the right direction.

I think my main beef was that you used "oxymoron" incorrectly to be honest! It reminded me of Alanis Morrissette's grasp of the term "ironic".
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  #10004  
Old 07.12.2017, 12:22
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Naw, I realized he was talking about some far outlier of some guy who forgot his ID. Law enforcement do not normally arrest people with no cause, and I don't think hundreds of thousands of innocent people wander near the border forgetting their ID.
I actually know a guy who did precisely that. Forgot his ID, got lost in the desert and ended up in a place where the cops thought he was coming from Mexico.

They took him to the sherriff's office, gave him coffee, made a few phone calls to verify his story and then let him go after an hour ot two, warning him not to do that again.
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  #10005  
Old 07.12.2017, 12:39
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Trump recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel does not change the final issue of any peace negotiation. He is not the adjudicator here, his is just one voice among many.
Trump did not adjudicate anything here, nor did he actually make any particular decision of his own. In fact, he hasn't actually done anything yet other than making a speech, and delaying its implementation by signing the waiver.

He basically stated he would allow a congressional act to be implemented, recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital, then signs the waiver, yet people howl.

This is totally within US's sovereign prerogative, as it is in Israel's prerogative to state where their capital sits. This does not need to go through a worldwide consensus vote, nor require any other country's consent. Yet it does cement Israel's legitimacy and Trump's legacy in history.
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  #10006  
Old 07.12.2017, 12:57
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Trump did not adjudicate anything here, nor did he actually make any particular decision of his own. In fact, he hasn't actually done anything yet other than making a speech, and delaying its implementation by signing the waiver.

He basically stated he would allow a congressional act to be implemented, recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital, then signs the waiver, yet people howl.

This is totally within US's sovereign prerogative, as it is in Israel's prerogative to state where their capital sits. This does not need to go through a worldwide consensus vote, nor require any other country's consent. Yet it does cement Israel's legitimacy and Trump's legacy in history.
True.

And even if the sovereignty of parts of Jerusalem may be disputed, who is to say the US embassy won't be located in the undisputed part?

If you listen to the international uproar you might think some poor Palestinian family are being chased off their land so that Trump can build an embassy there. But that is pure speculation, and very unlikely.
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  #10007  
Old 07.12.2017, 13:08
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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If you listen to the international uproar you might think some poor Palestinian family are being chased off their land so that Trump can build an embassy there. But that is pure speculation, and very unlikely.
Mainstream media and their political partners are fueled by mindless emotionality and outrage that lack thought of reality. They once were able to control and manipulate the narrative, and determine its course of action. That veneer had already cracked a while ago. Yet many are still under its spell because they now try to peddle panic. But that panic is their own, not necessarily of real people.

Last edited by Phos; 07.12.2017 at 14:03.
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  #10008  
Old 07.12.2017, 13:30
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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True.

And even if the sovereignty of parts of Jerusalem may be disputed, who is to say the US embassy won't be located in the undisputed part?

If you listen to the international uproar you might think some poor Palestinian family are being chased off their land so that Trump can build an embassy there. But that is pure speculation, and very unlikely.
Israel illegally annexed eastern Jerusalem, what it claims to be its capital includes those annexed areas. Trump's declaration accepts that claim and makes it impossible for the Palestineans to have eastern Jerusalem as their capital as that requires an Ok by Israel.

This recognition permanently blocks a two-state solution (however unlikely that has been before this move). It will probably improve Iran's position, perhaps this is the reason he immediately raised doubts on the nuclear deal, perhaps he's preparing to demonise Iran to more easily get a "Go" to attack it.

After all he still hasn't had the option to use the nukes.
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  #10009  
Old 07.12.2017, 13:36
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Israel illegally annexed eastern Jerusalem, what it claims to be its capital includes those annexed areas. Trump's declaration accepts that claim and makes it impossible for the Palestineans to have eastern Jerusalem as their capital as that requires an Ok by Israel.
But surely you can dispute the status of the annexed areas without disputing the parts of Jerusalem that are internationally recognized as being legitimately part of Israel, or disputing Istael's rights to have their capital there.
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  #10010  
Old 07.12.2017, 13:45
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Trump recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel does not change the final issue of any peace negotiation. He is not the adjudicator here, his is just one voice among many.
And he didn't adjudicate anything, the US congress did in 1995.

He simply implemented their 22 year old decision, as Clinton, Bush, and Obama all failed to do so.

Tom
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  #10011  
Old 07.12.2017, 13:50
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Israel illegally annexed eastern Jerusalem.
How so?

They were attacked by their neighbors, and didn't give back the territory that their agressors lost in the war.

Next, you'll be saying that Poland should give East Prussia and Danzig back to Germany, Italy give back the Alto Adige and Trieste to Austria, and most of Switzerland to Austria, etc.

Tom
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  #10012  
Old 07.12.2017, 14:03
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Let's have a look what a pre-President Obama thought about Jerusalem being the capital of Israel

Nothing new then. As Trump's announcement is - so far - just words, nothing but words. Just like Obama's.

As I said earlier - it's not gonna happen.
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  #10013  
Old 07.12.2017, 14:10
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Nothing new then. As Trump's announcement is - so far - just words, nothing but words. Just like Obama's.

As I said earlier - it's not gonna happen.
It is going to happen. We may even see a peace deal when it does.

This is akin to Trump pulling out of the Paris Climate Agreement. Lots of howling about how we are all doomed to be burned to a crisp or drown in rising oceans. Yet the reality of it is that agreement is just a piece of paper. The US has not emitted any more or less emissions. The US can just as well outperform target emissions, if it is even necessary, outside the agreement as inside through innovations.

It was just more spectacular to paint an irrational Trump to be afraid of, I guess, with smoke and mirrors.
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Old 07.12.2017, 14:14
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Yet the reality of it is that agreement is just a piece of paper. The US has not emitted any more or less emissions. The US can just as well outperform target emissions, if it is even necessary, outside the agreement as inside through innovations.
Innovations such as "clean" coal will definitely help lower emissions.
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  #10015  
Old 07.12.2017, 14:21
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Israel illegally annexed eastern Jerusalem, what it claims to be its capital includes those annexed areas. Trump's declaration accepts that claim and makes it impossible for the Palestineans to have eastern Jerusalem as their capital as that requires an Ok by Israel.

This recognition permanently blocks a two-state solution (however unlikely that has been before this move). It will probably improve Iran's position, perhaps this is the reason he immediately raised doubts on the nuclear deal, perhaps he's preparing to demonise Iran to more easily get a "Go" to attack it.

After all he still hasn't had the option to use the nukes.
Please do not confuse people with facts; it only causes them distress.

I do not believe this blocks the two-state solution! It is just that one country now announced it supports the Israel position versus 85 who do not.
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  #10016  
Old 07.12.2017, 14:30
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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But surely you can dispute the status of the annexed areas without disputing the parts of Jerusalem that are internationally recognized as being legitimately part of Israel, or disputing Istael's rights to have their capital there.
Certainly. But this isn't about West-Jerusalem only.
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  #10017  
Old 07.12.2017, 14:33
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Please do not confuse people with facts; it only causes them distress.

I do not believe this blocks the two-state solution! It is just that one country now announced it supports the Israel position versus 85 who do not.
But the US always has?
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Old 07.12.2017, 14:43
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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But the US always has?
There was an Act of Congress that said "Whereas the President and the Secretary of State should publicly affirm as a matter of United States policy that Jerusalem must remain the undivided capital of the State of Israel" but it needed the President to act.

Trump did not go all the way he did not say "undivided capital"
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  #10019  
Old 07.12.2017, 14:53
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Please do not confuse people with facts; it only causes them distress.

I do not believe this blocks the two-state solution! It is just that one country now announced it supports the Israel position versus 85 who do not.
Russia recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, Czech Republic followed Trump yesterday, as well as.... err... Dueterte in the Philippines.

It may take a while because I think many of them are simply slow to catch on.
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Old 07.12.2017, 14:55
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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How so?

They were attacked by their neighbors, and didn't give back the territory that their agressors lost in the war.

Next, you'll be saying that Poland should give East Prussia and Danzig back to Germany, Italy give back the Alto Adige and Trieste to Austria, and most of Switzerland to Austria, etc.

Tom
or Turkey in northern Cyprus..hold on, world is against that..sorry my bad..
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