Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
Yes 61 27.35%
No 162 72.65%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #10061  
Old 09.12.2017, 18:48
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Timbuktoo/Zürich
Posts: 5,215
Groaned at 709 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 1,817 Times in 1,201 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Did Trump say that the borders in Jerusalem between West and East Jews and Arabs have to be worked out and not that the whole of Jerusalem belongs to Israel, In other words west Jerusalem is capital of Israel
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank omtatsat for this useful post:
  #10062  
Old 09.12.2017, 19:04
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Did Trump say that the borders in Jerusalem between West and East Jews and Arabs have to be worked out and not that the whole of Jerusalem belongs to Israel, In other words west Jerusalem is capital of Israel
He did not say "west Jerusalem is capital of Israel"
He said "I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel".

Full text here.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at marton for this post:
  #10063  
Old 09.12.2017, 19:24
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Did Trump say that the borders in Jerusalem between West and East Jews and Arabs have to be worked out and not that the whole of Jerusalem belongs to Israel, In other words west Jerusalem is capital of Israel
It sounds like this is something of great importance to you, so I suggest you look at it carefully for yourself, and don't just simply take anybody's word for it. There is way too much dis/misinformation in the world nowadays.
Reply With Quote
  #10064  
Old 09.12.2017, 19:59
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
It sounds like this is something of great importance to you, so I suggest you look at it carefully for yourself, and don't just simply take anybody's word for it. There is way too much dis/misinformation in the world nowadays.
Said by someone who groaned me for providing the link to Trump's actual speech.
Reply With Quote
  #10065  
Old 09.12.2017, 20:08
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Said by someone who groaned me for providing the link to Trump's actual speech.
Because you failed to include:
"We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders. Those questions are up to the parties involved."
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #10066  
Old 09.12.2017, 20:09
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,756
Groaned at 498 Times in 304 Posts
Thanked 7,889 Times in 3,092 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

That’s so unlike marton to selectively quote
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Loz1983 for this useful post:
  #10067  
Old 09.12.2017, 20:25
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
That’s so unlike marton to selectively quote
Two Palestinians were shot dead, and one critical out of misrepresentation and misconstruation of Trump's speech. The stupidity can be tragically deadly.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #10068  
Old 09.12.2017, 20:43
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Timbuktoo/Zürich
Posts: 5,215
Groaned at 709 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 1,817 Times in 1,201 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

And I simply can't watch this idiot talking!! His voice grates on my nerves. Like watching Hitler talking. And yes he did say the two sides could work things out later ( or never ) He was just trying to win back his support at home. Nothing more.
Quote:
View Post
Two Palestinians were shot dead, and one critical out of misrepresentation and misconstruation of Trump's speech. The stupidity can be tragically deadly.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank omtatsat for this useful post:
  #10069  
Old 09.12.2017, 21:57
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Because you failed to include:
"We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders. Those questions are up to the parties involved."
He twice said ""I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel", he twice deliberately chose not to say "West Jerusalem".

In contrast the Czechs said "it recognizes the pre-1967 west Jerusalem as the capital of Israel"
and the Russians back in April said "We reaffirm our commitment to the UN-approved principles for a Palestinian-Israeli settlement, which include the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state," the ministry said.
"At the same time, we must state that in this context we view West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.""

Trump burying his comment the end of his speech is not the same!
I wonder why he said "We are not taking a position of any final status issues..." instead of "We are not taking a position on any final status issues..."
__________________
It is naive to assume my posts are my own work
Reply With Quote
  #10070  
Old 09.12.2017, 22:22
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,456
Groaned at 63 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 5,657 Times in 3,036 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
........
I wonder why he said "We are not taking a position of any final status issues..." instead of "We are not taking a position on any final status issues..."
Finesse is not Trumps strong point. I'm surprised you ponder about this.

In the end the f might just have kept his teeth in, while the n wouldn't have.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #10071  
Old 09.12.2017, 22:35
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Finesse is not Trumps strong point. I'm surprised you ponder about this.

In the end the f might just have kept his teeth in, while the n wouldn't have.
Alternatively Trump might have been developing an excuse not to move his Embassy at all?
If he had said "it is time to officially recognize West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel" then they could have built it in West Jerusalem.
But he said "it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel" and the boundaries of Jerusalem have to be agreed.
So now he can say we cannot build a new Embassy in Jerusalem until we know the boundaries of Jerusalem?
Reply With Quote
  #10072  
Old 09.12.2017, 22:50
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,456
Groaned at 63 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 5,657 Times in 3,036 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Alternatively Trump might have been developing an excuse not to move his Embassy at all?
If he had said "it is time to officially recognize West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel" then they could have built it in West Jerusalem.
But he said "it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel" and the boundaries of Jerusalem have to be agreed.
So now he can say we cannot build a new Embassy in Jerusalem until we know the boundaries of Jerusalem?
He could build the embassy in West Jerusalem, could claim he delivered while the actual problem stays unsolved.

In fact we should all go and build our embassies in West Jerusalem - it would be a very firm message!

But so far - in my opinion - he just said the same thing they all said and no, he.has.not.delivered. And I doubt he will.
Reply With Quote
  #10073  
Old 09.12.2017, 23:41
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

The United States still will not formally recognize Jerusalem as being located in Israel on official documents, maps, and passports, despite President Donald Trump's announcement earlier this week that America is formally recognizing the holy city as Israel's capital, according to State Department officials who spoke to the Washington Free Beacon about the matter.

Source

Gets weirder

A day later, no 'Jerusalem, Israel,' on US government maps

Source
Reply With Quote
  #10074  
Old 10.12.2017, 10:10
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Timbuktoo/Zürich
Posts: 5,215
Groaned at 709 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 1,817 Times in 1,201 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Just because the US recognizes Jerusalem as the capital changes nothing.
And the embassy will be like the mexican wall-probably never will be built. He just looks to satisfy his crony supporters.
Quote:
View Post
He could build the embassy in West Jerusalem, could claim he delivered while the actual problem stays unsolved.

In fact we should all go and build our embassies in West Jerusalem - it would be a very firm message!

But so far - in my opinion - he just said the same thing they all said and no, he.has.not.delivered. And I doubt he will.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank omtatsat for this useful post:
  #10075  
Old 10.12.2017, 10:42
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

The irony of (inauguration crowd) Trump asking for a Washington Post reporter to be fired accusing him of tweeting a misleading photo showing a mostly-empty venue ahead of the president's Friday rally in Pensacola, Fla.
Anyway it was on the reporter's private Twitter account!

Source

Anyway if tweeting fakes is a firing offence then Trump would be long gone e.g. fake Muslim video, Megyn Kelly photo.
Reply With Quote
  #10076  
Old 10.12.2017, 15:18
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Just because the US recognizes Jerusalem as the capital changes nothing.
And the embassy will be like the mexican wall-probably never will be built. He just looks to satisfy his crony supporters.
It dashes any hope of Israel leaving the city. It also eliminates the key sticking point in previous negotiations. With this one out of the way, may make a more lasting peace deal possible.

It cements Israel's legitimacy, while potentially turning Trump into a hero in Judeo-Christian history. It is said to be fulfilling Jewish prophecy.

It could also be simply a Hanukkah present for his grandchildren. In which case, would be a hell of a present.

So yeah, changes nothing.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #10077  
Old 10.12.2017, 15:34
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
It dashes any hope of Israel leaving the city. It also eliminates the key sticking point in previous negotiations. With this one out of the way, may make a more lasting peace deal possible.

It cements Israel's legitimacy, while potentially turning Trump into a hero in Judeo-Christian history. It is said to be fulfilling Jewish prophecy.

It could also be simply a Hanukkah present for his grandchildren. In which case, would be a hell of a present.

So yeah, changes nothing.
Sorry to disappoint you but it does not dash any hopes of Israel leaving the city. There are still 85 countries that do not recognise this.

US is no longer the world leader you imagine
Reply With Quote
  #10078  
Old 10.12.2017, 16:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,833
Groaned at 56 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 2,697 Times in 1,479 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

I know it's more a psychological thing.

But Trump has a point.

Everybody says "We don't recognize Jerusalem as capital" - but politicians have no problem flying there to meet Israeli politicians.
All the government-offices are there.

AFAIK, most Western states have recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. They can move their capital anywhere.
There are no (meaningful) sanctions. Because nobody in the West wants a weak Israel.

Thus, the peace process doesn't exist anyway.

A two-state solution might be viable with something like Switzerland and Liechtenstein (where there are (mostly) no ill feelings.
But with so many dead and nobody standing up and saying "It's my fault", this is going nowhere. Ever.

After the 2nd WW, what helped Germany come to peace with the neighboring nations? Saying "It's all our fault, we're truly sorry". And paying Israel compensation (still continues to this day, in various forms).

Someone had to bear the whole weight - and when you truly lost the war, that's a good day to call it quits and own up to it.

Why does that no happen in Israel? Because this has been going on for so long and with so many casualties and atrocities on both sides that each side can point the finger to the side and say "It's all their fault" - and it's true (and false at the same time).

Also, while there were conflicts, nobody really got defeated. Sure, borders were moved. But nobody got defeated.
That's the whole point. When you defeat somebody, you inherit the responsibility for the citizens of the land you capture. Like the US "inherited" the responsibility for the people of Germany and had to feed them through one of the harshest Winters in the century, in 1945.
Technically, Israel would probably need to hand out Israeli citizenship to the people in the occupied territory - which they probably are not very inclined to do.

They also can't really deport them en masse - you don't want to have these headlines.

So, what you do? Deprive them of most of the bare minimum of existence and hope that natural attrition will do the rest.

So, what Trump has done is bury the two-state "solution" and kick the ball back into the Israeli side of the field.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #10079  
Old 10.12.2017, 16:25
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
Sorry to disappoint you but it does not dash any hopes of Israel leaving the city. There are still 85 countries that do not recognise this.

US is no longer the world leader you imagine
A country chooses its own capitol, it doesn't go through an international vote.


Quote:
View Post
So, what Trump has done is bury the two-state "solution" and kick the ball back into the Israeli side of the field.
Not necessarily. Trump didn't dictate any particular outcome, rather explicitly stated it is up to the two parties. The Palestinians are currently posturing like they are throwing their toys out. A better question is when practicality will prevail.
Reply With Quote
  #10080  
Old 10.12.2017, 16:29
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,553 Times in 6,309 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Quote:
View Post
I know it's more a psychological thing.

But Trump has a point.

Everybody says "We don't recognize Jerusalem as capital" - but politicians have no problem flying there to meet Israeli politicians.
All the government-offices are there.

AFAIK, most Western states have recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. They can move their capital anywhere.
There are no (meaningful) sanctions. Because nobody in the West wants a weak Israel.

Thus, the peace process doesn't exist anyway.

A two-state solution might be viable with something like Switzerland and Liechtenstein (where there are (mostly) no ill feelings.
But with so many dead and nobody standing up and saying "It's my fault", this is going nowhere. Ever.

After the 2nd WW, what helped Germany come to peace with the neighboring nations? Saying "It's all our fault, we're truly sorry". And paying Israel compensation (still continues to this day, in various forms).

Someone had to bear the whole weight - and when you truly lost the war, that's a good day to call it quits and own up to it.

Why does that no happen in Israel? Because this has been going on for so long and with so many casualties and atrocities on both sides that each side can point the finger to the side and say "It's all their fault" - and it's true (and false at the same time).

Also, while there were conflicts, nobody really got defeated. Sure, borders were moved. But nobody got defeated.
That's the whole point. When you defeat somebody, you inherit the responsibility for the citizens of the land you capture. Like the US "inherited" the responsibility for the people of Germany and had to feed them through one of the harshest Winters in the century, in 1945.
Technically, Israel would probably need to hand out Israeli citizenship to the people in the occupied territory - which they probably are not very inclined to do.

They also can't really deport them en masse - you don't want to have these headlines.

So, what you do? Deprive them of most of the bare minimum of existence and hope that natural attrition will do the rest.

So, what Trump has done is bury the two-state "solution" and kick the ball back into the Israeli side of the field.
"They can move their capital anywhere." Usually countries do not move their capital outside of the internationally recognised boundaries of their own country.

Trump has not buried the two-state "solution" because he does not own the solution so he cannot change it.
Anyway the UN have rejected Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A generic "will my salary be good enough" post Larsh Employment 51 12.12.2017 13:51
Will Hillary Clinton run for president again? PanFastic International affairs/politics 145 29.11.2016 09:03
Poll: Will Trump win the 2020 elections? k_and_e International affairs/politics 6 14.11.2016 21:29
Will Trump be the next US President? Phil_MCR International affairs/politics 2618 14.11.2016 12:16
Shall I inform my employer that I will be self employed or be a owner of a company? Broth76 Business & entrepreneur 6 09.07.2012 17:59


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0