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  #10101  
Old 11.12.2017, 14:38
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Paranoia and vilification of Jews is just paranoia and vilification same as for anyone else and doesn't need a special word for it. But we seem to like labels so we end up with anti-semitic, Islamophobic, Nazis, etc.
Well, we have the words. All the rest can be classified as xenophobia and racism - when it targets a specific group. But of course, you'll never see people reacting the same way for equally outrageous affirmations unless they fall under the names you mentioned.
I'll give you that. (otherwise, yes, you do seem a bit anti-semitic no offence, this is what comes across, I don't know you in person and I hope I'm wrong)


On topic though - I'll like to see how this decision of Trump will bring the peace any closer. Nor the Israelis, neither the Arab-palestinians will give up the fight for having the right to a part of Jerusalem. Therefore, it should stay neutral. Belong to all 3 main religions, made a centre of reconciliation*.
* Is it possible? Will it ever be?
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  #10102  
Old 11.12.2017, 14:46
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Anti-semitism is quite evident in the case of the reactions to Jerusalem.

What exactly is the problem with Jerusalem being acknowledged as Israel's capital? All people of all faiths can still visit their holy sites, as long as they don't inflict violence on others.

How is turning over Jerusalem to some newly invented Palestinian state a better result? There has been no such thing as a Palestinian state until 1988. Whereas the Jewish state dates back thousands of years ago.

In practical terms, does this so-called Palestinian state have any real capabilities apart from redistributing foreign aid? Many of them have violent pasts. How is that a better outcome?

As long as Jerusalem is not held by Jews, and held by any Muslim instead, no matter how incompetent or incapable they would be in maintaining peace?
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  #10103  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:28
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Women who have publicly accused President Trump of sexual misconduct will call for Congress to investigate the allegations at a press conference on Monday.

Some of the sixteen women who have accused Trump will unite for the first time to demand the probe and share details of their allegations against Trump.

Three lawmakers resigned or announced their resignation during the past week over sexual misconduct claims.

Source
The times have truly changed, huh? These things used to take place in court not too long ago?

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Wow those are pretty Antisemetic sentiments regardless. The ole the Rothschild banking excuse, damn haven't heard that in sometime. All the other rich people in power from Christian and Muslim backgrounds? Sorry your statement is absolutely ridiculous!
According to my wine rack, the Rothschild's are into producing wine. And good at it - but that's a matter of taste, I guess. Never thought about whether the wine was Jewish or Christian (I wonder if that matters in church ceremonies? )

It's weird enough to talk about "the Germans", "the Americans", The [enter any nationality] but to talk about "the Jews", "The moslems" is even more far fetched. Strangely enough one hardly ever hears "the Christians", so this may be a Christian thing?
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  #10104  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:32
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...rael_and_Judah

They may have existed thousands of years ago, but does that give Jews a right to claim the land any more than it does the Palestininans or any other groups in that area? They've been fighting each other for thousands of years so all claims are pretty much equal as far as I can see.

Jews only have the city because they fought for it, they didn't build it originally - that was the Canaanites whom the Jews exterminated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

I cannot understand the US's and to a certain extent the rest of the Western world's obsession with Israel and Jews. Practically the first thing any US President does is affirm their backing of the Israelis. Why? They're all as bad as each other out there. Best drop a nuke on the lot and let God/Allah sort out his own.
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  #10105  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:41
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I cannot understand the US's and to a certain extent the rest of the Western world's obsession with Israel and Jews. Practically the first thing any US President does is affirm their backing of the Israelis. Why? They're all as bad as each other out there. Best drop a nuke on the lot and let God/Allah sort out his own.
Wow, I'm sure glad to read a good person's suggestion
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  #10106  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:46
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

If only we could generate electricity from stupid.

The last couple of pages could provide power for half of Switzerland.
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  #10107  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I cannot understand the US's and to a certain extent the rest of the Western world's obsession with Israel and Jews. Practically the first thing any US President does is affirm their backing of the Israelis. Why? They're all as bad as each other out there. Best drop a nuke on the lot and let God/Allah sort out his own.
The Bible has about 1,000 references to Zion and Jerusalem, and is the reason the Jews were called out of Egypt. Christianity is built on top of Judaism, accepting the validity of jewish scripture. I'm surprise to hear semi-intelligent people in the West today claiming ignorance of its history and culture.
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  #10108  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:50
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Why is the truth antisemitic? It's been the case for centuries that the Jews have their fingers in a lot of things everywhere. It's a fact, that doesn't make it antisemitic. The Rothschild family are bankers - is that an antisemitic statement? No, just fact.

All too often Jews - and others - cry "antisemitic" when it isn't.

And for your info:

"A DNA study of Jews and Palestinian Arabs (including Bedouins) found that these were more closely related to each other than to people of the Arabian Peninsula, Ethiopian Semitic-speaking people (Amharas, Tigrayans, Harari and Tigre people), and the North African Arabs.[12][13]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

And if you want to judge who should have what by length of occupation the sorry, but the Muslims win over Jews hands down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem#History
Length of occupation?
The history of Judaism spans more than 3,000 years and the history of Islam spans more than 1,500 years.
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  #10109  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:50
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The times have truly changed, huh? These things used to take place in court not too long ago?
It's a bit more complicted when the accused is the sitting president. A pretty good explanation of the constitutional issues and historical norms at play:

https://www.voanews.com/a/can-a-us-p...e/3961703.html

From the article:

"While the Constitution lays out conditions under which a president can be impeached and removed from office, it does not directly address whether the president can be prosecuted. Neither does federal law. Courts have never ruled on the issue.

As a result of that lack of clarity, scholars base their judgement on more vague factors, such as constitutional principles and the original intent of the founders.

The prevailing view among legal scholars is that a sitting president cannot be indicted, according to recent reports. But legal opinion is divided, says Eric Freedman, professor of constitutional law at Hofstra University."



/US civics lesson
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  #10110  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:53
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Israel is not going to give any of the contested land back. Not an inch (or square inch). Not in Jerusalem, not on the West Bank and not on the Gaza Strip. Nowhere.
I disagree.

I don't think Israel cares much for the Gaza strip, except maybe as a bargaining chip. Remember some years ago how they dismantled their settlements there and moved their people out.

I can also well see them letting go of certain parts of the West Bank in a similar manner, provided the result is a defendible border and there aren't any of those silly enclaves or exclaves.

But where I agree that there is little room for compromise is Jerusalem. Maybe some years ago had the Palestinians had some smart negotiators, they might have secured some suburbs, but even that is now increasingly unlikely as the last bits of the ring are being closed with new settlements.

So the best the Palestinans can aim for is to agree to some border corrections and then create their own state on the resulting land.

If the resulting state turns into such a shining example of peace and development with a friendly relationship with all neighbours, they can maybe come back some years later and ask for some more land. They could even make the case that Jeruslaem would be a better, more peaceful and more tolerant place for all religions under their protection.

But first they need to prove they can do that in the areas they have.

Their present all or nothing attitude is taking them nowhere.
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  #10111  
Old 11.12.2017, 15:59
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The Bible has about 1,000 references to Zion and Jerusalem, and is the reason the Jews were called out of Egypt. Christianity is built on top of Judaism, accepting the validity of jewish scripture. I'm surprise to hear semi-intelligent people in the West today claiming ignorance of its history and culture.
And in turn the Koran has more references to Jesus than to Muhammad.
Same Abrahamic God for all three, just differences in interpretations and variations in religious practices.
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  #10112  
Old 11.12.2017, 16:02
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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...(otherwise, yes, you do seem a bit anti-semitic no offence, this is what comes across, I don't know you in person and I hope I'm wrong)


I wanted to write the same as medea, but I dont know how to write without coming across as antisemitic.

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I cannot understand the US's and to a certain extent the rest of the Western world's obsession with Israel and Jews. Practically the first thing any US President does is affirm their backing of the Israelis. Why? They're all as bad as each other out there. Best drop a nuke on the lot and let God/Allah sort out his own.

Guilt I guess?

Last edited by Elu; 11.12.2017 at 16:06. Reason: Fixed multiquote
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  #10113  
Old 11.12.2017, 16:04
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The Bible has about 1,000 references to Zion and Jerusalem, and is the reason the Jews were called out of Egypt. Christianity is built on top of Judaism, accepting the validity of jewish scripture. I'm surprise to hear semi-intelligent people in the West today claiming ignorance of its history and culture.
The Bible is a collection of stories by unknown authors that may - or may not - have some historical meaning. Since it also contains "facts" about someone who turned water into wine, walked on water and raised the dead I have my doubts about it's validity.

And even if ... it doesn't explain why the US leaps on the Israel bandwagon as soon as a new President takes office. None of the European countries have felt the need as soon as their heads of state take office and they've been Christian much longer than the US.
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  #10114  
Old 11.12.2017, 16:09
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The UN plan from back long ago actually says that both Israel and the Palestinians should have Jersualem as their capital, but that Jerusalem should be a divided city. This could be interpreted to mean they want to see a wall running down the middle of the city, a bit like Berlin - or maybe something that is more open than that on regular days but can be shut down quickly if the situation demands it. In other words, a wall with well defined openings.
Basically Kreuzlingen/Konstanz. No particular reason this can't work.

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Furthermore, some of the Jewish holy sites are actually in what should according to the UN be the Palestinian sector.

In other words, what the UN wants is unworkable. If the Palestians want to stick with the divided city scenario, they should at least concede that that border needs some adusting. I expect the more switched on ones fully understand this but can't bring themselves to admit it.
An agreement only works if it's advantageous for both sides. Leaving the Palestine side with sites that are precious to Israel, and vice versa, can create or foster such a situation.
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  #10115  
Old 11.12.2017, 16:10
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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And in turn the Koran has more references to Jesus than to Muhammad.
Same Abrahamic God for all three, just differences in interpretations and variations in religious practices.
But whereas the Bible abbreviates many Talmudic passages and skips some of the more obscure stuff entirely, it does not contradict the Talmud on any major issues as far as I am aware, and conserves the spirit of the text. The Bible can thus be seen to build on and extend the Talmud without discarding it. So the only thing that separates Judaism from Christinaity is that Jews don't agree with the bits Christians added, and Christians regret that Jews don't accept those bits.

The Koran, on the other hand, rewrites several passages in a fundamentally different way. For example the story of Abraham sacrificing his son, where according to Bible and Talmud it was Isaac who was to be sacrificed, the Koran has the other son, Ismael, in his place. This deligitimizes many of the descendants of Isaac and causes many problems of interpretation.

The Koran also denies the deity of Jesus (reducing him to a prophet), the virginity of Mary, the Resurection, the Trinity and other concepts that are fundamental to Christianity. It does thus not build on and further advance Christianity but contradicts it.

So I would posture that Christianiity and Judaism are related more closely to one-another than either is to Islam.
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  #10116  
Old 11.12.2017, 16:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The Bible is a collection of stories by unknown authors that may - or may not - have some historical meaning. Since it also contains "facts" about someone who turned water into wine, walked on water and raised the dead I have my doubts about it's validity.

And even if ... it doesn't explain why the US leaps on the Israel bandwagon as soon as a new President takes office. None of the European countries have felt the need as soon as their heads of state take office and they've been Christian much longer than the US.
There are some pragmatic reasons along with religious ones for support of Israel. At the moment, its the only well functioning democracy in the Middle East. It also outputs a lot of tangible and intrinsic values.

The US did not suddenly leap on this with Trump, Israel has had US support for some time. Its nothing new.

And yes, we're all quite aware of European attitudes towards Jews to date.
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Old 11.12.2017, 16:14
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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It's a bit more complicted when the accused is the sitting president. A pretty good explanation of the constitutional issues and historical norms at play:

https://www.voanews.com/a/can-a-us-p...e/3961703.html

From the article:

"While the Constitution lays out conditions under which a president can be impeached and removed from office, it does not directly address whether the president can be prosecuted. Neither does federal law. Courts have never ruled on the issue.

As a result of that lack of clarity, scholars base their judgement on more vague factors, such as constitutional principles and the original intent of the founders.

The prevailing view among legal scholars is that a sitting president cannot be indicted, according to recent reports. But legal opinion is divided, says Eric Freedman, professor of constitutional law at Hofstra University."



/US civics lesson
Indeed, it seems so. Thanks for the links.

<<The Constitution says impeachable offenses include "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors," but Congress alone has the authority to interpret that standard.>>
So I guess the first thing to check is: Is sexual misconduct a "Offizialdelikt" [criminal offence liable to public prosecution] (probably not, here it wouldn't be) or a "Antragsdelikt" [criminal offence prosecuted only upon application by the victim].

One more question: <<will call for Congress to investigate the allegations at a press conference>> can the Congress not be approached directly? Only via a press conference??
Wouldn't it be somehow more legitimate?
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  #10118  
Old 11.12.2017, 16:16
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Basically Kreuzlingen/Konstanz. No particular reason this can't work.
But suppose Switzerland was to transfer its capital to Kreuzlingen, would Germany object and would angry crowds start burning Swiss flags?

You cannot compare a situation where two nations have been at peace for a very long time to one where war could break out any minute.

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An agreement only works if it's advantageous for both sides. Leaving the Palestine side with sites that are precious to Israel, and vice versa, can create or foster such a situation.
It would seem to me that having a state, any state at all, might be advantageous to the Palestinians in a first step, accompanied by a resolution that the status of the other territories remains open so they can renegotiate them when the time is ripe.
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  #10119  
Old 11.12.2017, 16:20
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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There are some pragmatic reasons along with religious ones for support of Israel. At the moment, its the only well functioning democracy in the Middle East. It also outputs a lot of tangible and intrinsic values.


I am very happy about that, I hope there will never be a time (again) where we make political decisions based on fictional scriptures and imaginary friends.

I know it sounds harsh but please don't forget the importance of secularism for a functional multicultural society.
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Old 11.12.2017, 16:30
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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But whereas the Bible abbreviates many Talmudic passages and skips some of the more obscure stuff entirely, it does not contradict the Talmud on any major issues as far as I am aware, and conserves the spirit of the text. The Bible can thus be seen to build on and extend the Talmud without discarding it. So the only thing that separates Judaism from Christinaity is that Jews don't agree with the bits Christians added, and Christians regret that Jews don't accept those bits.

The Koran, on the other hand, rewrites several passages in a fundamentally different way. For example the story of Abraham sacrificing his son, where according to Bible and Talmud it was Isaac who was to be sacrificed, the Koran has the other son, Ismael, in his place. This deligitimizes many of the descendants of Isaac and causes many problems of interpretation.

The Koran also denies the deity of Jesus (reducing him to a prophet), the virginity of Mary, the Resurection, the Trinity and other concepts that are fundamental to Christianity. It does thus not build on and further advance Christianity but contradicts it.

So I would posture that Christianiity and Judaism are related more closely to one-another than either is to Islam.
"The Koran also denies the deity of Jesus " But Judaism also does not teach that Jesus was raised from the dead or was the Messiah or the concept of the Trinity?
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