Eh, I don't see anything there to be afraid of, or how much worse it can be than the current state of affairs. I have found Putin to be more rational and pragmatic than what I have seen coming out of Obama and Europe. Trump is also proving to be more rational and pragmatic than the losing side of the election. I think this is a solid basis for a conversation.

I only see empty and futile arguments against Trump at the moment - arguments of mischaracterisations and twisted imaginations. Fortunately, there is a brighter and more hopeful outlook about all this out there.

Looking back through this thread though, what you seem to "see" and what is reality seem to be poles apart.

Anyone that utterly hero-worships leaders of countries is bound to let that cloud his opinions, plus it shows you up to be a victim of your own echo-chamber theory.

A healthy amount of skepticism is, ironically, probably the most "rational and pragmatic" approach.

Naw, I don't do hero worship, nor do I put much faith in governments. What I expect from Trump, more than I would have expected from Hillary, is to clear government out of the way of people for them to perform as they need to. As for what people are capable of, that I put more faith in than in governments.

My favourite political comedy relief is back: Sarah Palin, the woman who inspired the term "word-salad", is being considered for a position in Trump's cabinet. It's just getting better and better.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...urn-frontline/

Edit:

'Divine providence played a huge role in this election. I will boldly proclaim that. I saw it first-hand. I was there on the campaign trail,' says the Republican politician.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a7447281.html

Don't expect the blatant hypocrisy to phase Trump's supporters.

Giving speeches to Goldman Sachs: being corrupt and compromised.
Hiring one of their guys to be head of treasury: high-energy 4D chess, MAGA.

"Divine providence played a huge role in this election" So Armageddon is finally coming driven by nuclear Trump

Must be time for a nice cup of tea!

Oh Phos, you are so positive, I really do wish I could be this postive about DT.

Some light reading on DT http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/29/op...l_bottommedium

I wouldn't really focus too much on Trump. I personally wouldn't obsess on him. Frankly, he and all the whining about him are excruciatingly boring. He isn't even all that pretty and interesting to look at anyway, and most of journalistic articles about him read like it comes from spiteful jealousy.

What is of more interest is the impact around him and how it changes the dynamics of the US as it goes through its upcoming changes. I believe there are upcoming opportunities for US to boom - the US, not Trump. I think it has the potential to be huuuuge and amazing in a couple of years. THAT is more important and exciting than Trump.

Really? To most people, journalists come across as treating him like some kind of freak show, ripe for a story. There's not much jealousy there.

He's a bottomless pit of bizarreness to flog papers and advertising, lining the pockets of media shareholders. Clinton would never have generated such a copy-worthy freak show. He's a journo's wet dream.

I trust by now you've all heard about Carrier's announcement to move 2000 jobs (some speak of 1'400) to Mexico. Apparently Trump has managed to reduce that to 1000, keeping 1'000 jobs in the US. What role Pence played is anybody's guess, he's still Governor of Indiana.

Turns out that came at a significant cost:
$9'000 tax reduction per job for ten years, or $90k per job in total.

This shows two things:
One, Trump has no trouble using federal coffers to subsidise companies. Coupled with the suggested tax cuts (especially for big earners) expect a much bigger budget deficit for years.

Two, and at least as important:
A company that threatens to move jobs abroad can reap some nice subsidy, gladly provided for by Trump and paid for by you, the US taxpayer. Look forward to many more similar announcements and deals.

Your source for these payouts and where it is coming from?

I think this was largely symbolic. The US government normally does not interfere in private sector decisions such as these. This is something normally seen in third world countries.

Ironically, Obama lampooned Trump about how he can't bring back jobs in this particularly Carrier case, and so Trump did. Knowing Trump I think it was just to troll Obama.

I can't imagine Trump's administration getting involved with every company's decision on where to conduct its business. But they did get involved in this case. Its important for them to understand the circumstances and conditions that motivate a company move its productions like this, and consider policies that discourage it. They can then consider systemic changes. His cabinet choices are geared towards solving these types of issues. Overall, this is already a lot more involved than Obama was willing to get, and it does score Trump political legitimacy before he even enters office.

Comments on the Carrier deal, from the Indianapolis Star:

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/p...ring/94725864/

(The Indy Star is a right-leaning paper, writing to it's very red state, rust belt readership. Their criticism should not be dismissed as liberal political bias, this is 'traditional conservatism' speaking.)

Also, an opinion piece in the same edition of the IndyStar which addresses a larger point in the state's economic malaise: 'Indiana's Skill Gap Leaves Workers Behind':

http://www.indystar.com/story/opinio...hind/94105562/

Here is where the educaton policies that Trump et al seem to be pushing are worrying.

When manufacturing left Indiana, there wasn't much to take it's place. Many in the state went from solid working or middle class where a factory job meant one could expect to own a modest home, feed the family, send your kid to college so he or she could do better than you did, to a slow downward slide out of the middle class and into poverty.

Eventually some jobs returned - but these were jobs demanding skills that the former factory worker did not have. The hope was the the factory worker's kid would get the education needed to win one of the jobs available in today's economic reality.

If the incoming administration's pick for Education Secretary's sound bites become policy, cutting support for public education is going to leave more and more working and middle class Hoosiers (and Americans) behind.

Rewarding (tax cuts, federal deals) or punishing (Trump's campaign promise tariffs for offshoring) the remaining Indiana manufacturing companies to keep some of their workers in the state is not much more than a band aid. The problem needs to be addressed at it's root: educating our young people to live and work in today, and tomorrow, economy.

And that's not going to happen in an administration promoting cutting public education.

Looks like the US is already on its way, even before Trump is sworn in.

I'm glad you get the picture now.

I agree on the importance of education and it is positive rhetoric, although I don't believe it is a solution for present and intermediate economic issues. It could arguably be for longer term economic benefit. Also, it does not solve economic issues completely either, it may even exarcebate it, as the needs of the economy can quick surpass the supply of qualified people and it could even drive up the cost of labor.

Harping on education is positive rhetoric, as far as I'm concerned. But as a panacea for all economic issues, I don't think it meets the needs of reality in itself.

What drives labor to move to other countries is the availability of cheaper labor and lack of labor laws, not a more educated workforce.


We have plenty of the third world in the US. I don't know if you ever realised that.

You keep on using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. What mischaracterizations are you referring to? the man is damned by his words and actions. Repeating what he says or broadcasting audio, complete and unedited, is no misrepresentation of the man.

Misogynist - yes, damned by his own words
Liar - yes, damned by his own words again and again and again
Childish, petty and thin-skinned - yes, damned by his twitter feed
Egotistical - yes, damned by his words and actions.

The man is an utter arse and he's not going to suddenly change and become less manbaby and more presidential. Your president-elect is a joke and the world is laughing at you. Sadly given his war on Terra the joke could well be on all of us.

Nobody can be under any illusions as to what type of man they have voted for in Trump - what policies they voted for are less clear of course.

As Reids says, there is no mischaracterisation in playing verbatim what someone says.

You are looking at labour too simplistically.

Perish the thought.

I'd say: cost savings, tax savings, favourable legal environment and availability of local resources.

"it [education] may even exarcebate it, as the needs of the economy can quick surpass the supply of qualified people " But without education there would be even fewer qualified people