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amogles · #**13181** 04.06.2018, 14:18

	Quote:	rainer_d
	Longterm, this estrangement between different parts of the country and different parts of the population is going to kill society. The US was already a divided society, on multiple levels: monetarily, racially, ethnologically, politically, socially. If you add "geography" to the list, you have to ask: at what point does it stop being a nation? Is it enough when you can basically agree on one guy to carry the codes for the nukes - and that's pretty much it?

US society always was politically diverse, from the beginning. This is why the USA was built on federalism, with the individual states having far reaching freedoms to do their own thing, and only very basic powers being given to the federal governmentt. The 10th Amendment was created to keep it that way.

But in reality that hasn't worked and the federal government has gradually increased its power.

In my view, the solution is to go back to more federalism and more devolution of power. What is the best solution to a problem in an urban metroplis is not necessarily the best solution in a midwest farming community.

rainer_d · #**13182** 04.06.2018, 14:22

	Quote:	Urs Max
	... 80% of the population lives in urban areas.

Yes, but the question remains if that would really have been such a good outcome.

It's the same in Switzerland, where e.g. the public vote on the "Zweitwohnungsinitiative" was accepted in all cantons - except in those that were directly affected by it.

For the US, with its large number of contentious topics, I'd say it's not a sustainable situation for a long time.

#**13183** 04.06.2018, 14:28

	Quote:
	You guys are funny. Much as I loathe Trump, calls for electoral reform are always made by the side which lost. It may not be the best system, and I agree that a system that allows him to be voted into such an incredibly powerful position would seem to have its flaws, it's the same system that elected Obama twice, and I don't recall Democrat supporters complaining about it then.

No. People have been calling for electoral reform and abolishing the Electoral College for years.

amogles · #**13184** 04.06.2018, 14:58

	Quote:
	I'm sure that if Obama had lost the popular vote, but won the Electoral College, the Republicans would have moaned at least as much as the Democrats are now. But Obama was very comfortably elected by whichever measure you choose to take, so the question didn't arise. Five US presidential elections have resulted in the winner (via the Electoral College) losing the popular vote, in some cases by a substantial margin. The elected losers are: John Quincy Adams (1824) Rutherford B. Hayes (1876) Benjamin Harrison (1888) George W. Bush (2000) Donald Trump (2016) In the 1824 election, all four candidates were from the same party (Democratic-Republican Party). In each of the other four elections, the Republican candidate won against a Democrat opponent. Gerrymandering has quite a bit to do with it. Seems to me that Democrats have fair grounds for complaint. Source

It would be interesting to see a state by state breakdown for the three 19th Century examples. A lot has changed since then, with not only the parties being very different in their nature, but demographics having changed and many states having flipped their loyalties. So to suggest the system has a GOP bias, we would have to look at more details.

Urs Max · #**13185** 04.06.2018, 17:03

	Quote:	rainer_d
	Yes, but the question remains if that would really have been such a good outcome.

I found both abismal, with HC only a small bit less of a bad of a choice.

	Quote:	rainer_d
	It's the same in Switzerland, where e.g. the public vote on the "Zweitwohnungsinitiative" was accepted in all cantons - except in those that were directly affected by it.

Another one that apparently didn't get implemented as intended.

	Quote:	rainer_d
	For the US, with its large number of contentious topics, I'd say it's not a sustainable situation for a long time.

The real problem is the binary-ness in US politics (increasingly here, too), its polarisation. There's no such thing any longer like acrosss-the-aisle cooperation or willingness to compromise. The epitome of that trend was the tea party. Unfortunately they didn't vanish, they merged with the rest of the GOP instead.

MusicChick · #**13186** 04.06.2018, 17:12

	Quote:	kriss kross
	Plus all the illegal immigrants who didn't get what they wanted!

Plus them being actually wanted by liberals as potential loyal voters, after the libs pass the legislature on turning illegal immigrants into legal ones.

	Quote:	rainer_d
	The problem with Hillary was quite clearly that she only won the big cities and those were the only parts of the country where she was really popular.

The problem of Hillary was that people did not vote for her but against Trump. She played a symbolic role but in her grandstanding did not notice. It was obvious when she mocked deplorables. It was a fun moment of sheer, unintelligent political arrogance.

	Quote:
	That was one of the reasons why everybody including herself and Obama was so sure she'd win that they ridiculed Trump and his Twitter-outbursts, which I'm sure will haunt him (Obama) till the end.

Absolutely. Arrogance will do that...the only way out is to give the one who won a gracious moment. None of them did. It plays so well into Trump's strategy, en plus.

MusicChick · #**13187** 04.06.2018, 17:14

	Quote:	Urs Max
	I found both abismal, with HC only a small bit less of a bad of a choice. Another one that apparently didn't get implemented as intended. The real problem is the binary-ness in US politics (increasingly here, too), its polarisation. There's no such thing any longer like acrosss-the-aisle cooperation or willingness to compromise. The epitome of that trend was the tea party. Unfortunately they didn't vanish, they merged with the rest of the GOP instead.

You need to know how to communicate for that, listen to your opponent, instead or blaming them, discredit and accuse. We all can do with a bit more of that.

st2lemans · #**13188** 04.06.2018, 17:18

	Quote:
	My point was that the popular vote more accurately represents the majority view of the US electorate, so it can't be described as "irrelevant"

It's irrelevant to the election process, as that's not the way that it works.

Tom

Medea Fleecestealer · #**13189** 04.06.2018, 17:20

Trump still insisting he can pardon himself.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44359434

Have to ask why he would need to since he swears he's done nothing wrong.

Love to see him do it though, sure way to get impeached for abuse of office.

omtatsat · #**13190** 04.06.2018, 17:32

Rumours are that Melania is dead.

#**13191** 04.06.2018, 18:03

	Quote:	MusicChick
	She played a symbolic role but in her grandstanding did not notice. It was obvious when she mocked deplorables. It was a fun moment of sheer, unintelligent political arrogance.

When you hear the word "grandstanding", who do you think of more readily?

A. Hillary Clinton
B. Donald Trump

Answers in an infeasibly huge envelope, please.

And remember, it's fine to mock war heroes, the disabled, Mexicans, Muslim women, Chinese, Democrats, black men, homosexuals, scientists, and the truth, but under no circumstances should one ever use the term 'deplorables'. Mostly because it's ungrammatical, I guess.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Arrogance will do that...the only way out is to give the one who won a gracious moment. None of them did.

Presumably you missed the entire handover process. Obama was a model of gracious behaviour. Trump could learn a great deal from him.

st2lemans · #**13192** 04.06.2018, 18:07

	Quote:	omtatsat
	Rumours are that Melania is dead.

Source?

Tom

amogles · #**13193** 04.06.2018, 18:13

	Quote:
	Presumably you missed the entire handover process. Obama was a model of gracious behaviour. Trump could learn a great deal from him.

So gracious in fact, that a year and a half after the election, he still won't miss an opportunity to say bad things about his successor.

taduncombe · #**13194** 04.06.2018, 19:30

	Quote:	amogles
	So gracious in fact, that a year and a half after the election, he still won't miss an opportunity to say bad things about his successor.

Obama criticized Trump's ban on immigrants from a handful of Muslim majority countries. Trump spread a lie that Obama was a secret Muslim born in Kenya for years. Practically identical

Bothsides-ism is as self-serving and disinterested in constructive dialogue as party-line cheerleading.

And on the issue of civility or pettiness? Comparing Trump and Obama? You're trolling.

marton · #**13195** 04.06.2018, 19:33

	Quote:	amogles
	So gracious in fact, that a year and a half after the election, he still won't miss an opportunity to say bad things about his successor.

Links to these bad things please?

Edit; since his inauguration Trump has tweeted 106 times "bad things" about Obama.
How many links can you deliver that show Obama won't miss an opportunity to say bad things about his successor.

3Wishes · #**13196** 04.06.2018, 20:09

	Quote:	amogles
	So gracious in fact, that a year and a half after the election, he still won't miss an opportunity to say bad things about his successor.

Are you talking about the right person? Trump is the one who doesn't miss an opportunity to criticize Obama and Clinton (and anyone else he doesn't like). Not the other way around. Obama has criticized Trump, of course, but not on an almost daily basis.

marton · #**13197** 04.06.2018, 20:28

	Quote:	3Wishes
	Are you talking about the right person? Trump is the one who doesn't miss an opportunity to criticize Obama and Clinton (and anyone else he doesn't like). Not the other way around. Obama has criticized Trump, of course, but not on an almost daily basis.

It is the new Trump world where the norm is to publish accusations without a shred of evidence, examples

Obama wiretapped the Trump Tower
Obama inserted a spy into the trump campaign
I am not a big fan of the Obama Administration having sold perhaps the best located and finest embassy in London for “peanuts,”
The big story is the "unmasking and surveillance" of people that took place during the Obama Administration.

omtatsat · #**13198** 04.06.2018, 20:36

it seems she is alive

https://splinternews.com/melania-tru...s-n-1826432543

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Source? Tom

cannut · #**13199** 04.06.2018, 21:17

	Quote:	omtatsat
	it seems she is alive https://splinternews.com/melania-tru...s-n-1826432543

Yep second floor waving donald goodbye
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&sourc...28225844663719

omtatsat · #**13200** 04.06.2018, 21:18

What sort of a link is that!!

	Quote:	cannut
	Yep second floor waving donald goodbye https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&sourc...28225844663719