View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President? |
Yes
|    | 93 | 26.50% |
No
|    | 258 | 73.50% |  | | | 
17.07.2018, 17:53
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | This last week, I can't count how many times I've seen pieces about the normalisation of the lexicon of fascism on mainstream political programmes. | | | | | Wrong. We have seen lots of pieces claiming to be about the lexicon of facism without actually looking into that in a wholistic manner but rather cherry picking cliches.
The left is just as if not more complicit in bringing unpleasant terminology out of history books and into political discussions.
But it's just easier to blame others, and then shout whataboustism when somebody holds up a mirror.
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17.07.2018, 17:55
| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Go to any area which has been enriched, the locals (natives) aren't exactly pining for more immigration 
Its usually some middle class twat or out of touch journalist who is telling them how great it all is. | | | | | I'm sure the Berners were saying the same about you. But look, you're a true beam of sunshine enriching the lives of all you touch.
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17.07.2018, 17:59
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Something that stunned me yesterday was Putin's chair gripping body language. The only time I do that is when I know I have to keep my cool and not lose my temper, no matter what. | | | | | I noticed that too.
I suspect he was desperately trying not to start laughing maniacally.
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17.07.2018, 18:03
| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Wrong. We have seen lots of pieces claiming to be about the lexicon of facism without actually looking into that in a wholistic manner but rather cherry picking cliches.
The left is just as if not more complicit in bringing unpleasant terminology out of history books and into political discussions.
But it's just easier to blame others, and then shout whataboustism when somebody holds up a mirror. | | | | | How do you cope for a description if the people who can't stand the shit show going on at the moment are not politically left?
Do you have to be left to find the whole Trump circus and Brexit disaster a giant facepalm on the great slate of historical events?
Seems "the left" is just a lazy catch-all for "people who don't see things as I do" | The following 8 users would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
17.07.2018, 18:06
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Wrong. We have seen lots of pieces claiming to be about the lexicon of facism without actually looking into that in a wholistic manner but rather cherry picking cliches.
The left is just as if not more complicit in bringing unpleasant terminology out of history books and into political discussions. | | | | | How can you say it's wrong without knowing the reference material?
For reference:
GMB
Sky News
Question Time
This Week
Channel 4 News
Andrew Marr Show
The Politics Show
etc...
Are all of the programmes 'the left'?
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17.07.2018, 18:09
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Go to any area which has been enriched, the locals (natives) aren't exactly pining for more immigration 
Its usually some middle class twat or out of touch journalist who is telling them how great it all is. | | | | | Nobody is saying it’s great, I have mates that grew up in some pretty hideous parts of London, but it’s not “multiculturalism” that made those places miserable, it was a lack of government funding for amenities and schooling, dire housing and higher crime rates because of the neglect. But one thing I can tell you is that those communities are richer and more welcoming then most other communities in the UK. I have also lived in different parts of London, but it’s the ones you would define as an enriched that I have found to be the friendliest. I doesn’t mean I enjoy walking the streets alone at 3am, but I am more scared of being attacked unprovoked by white youth in Kingston at that time of night, then being robbed in Clapham or Willesden or Southal by a refugee. Its a fact that impoverishment creates crime. Maybe if governments stopped giving massive tax breaks to multinationals, they could divest more money into impoverished areas.
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17.07.2018, 18:10
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President?
There are people who advocate mass movement of foreign populations into new areas in Europe/US, for the sake of "humanity". Instead of West trying to help in the conflict zones, it seems, which would have been the alternative. I am not saying it is a good one since it hasn't been exactly working up until now, either.
The illogical part of is, majority of us are all accepted guests and new citizens of a place, that has imho been the most protectionist about miniscule areas (municipalities even, not only cantons!), and where borders and the respect to native local law and conditions still rule. It has proven to be very economical, the federation of small tight areas blooms. No? Why. Because nobody could ever really get in, unless strictly under quotas or willing to go by these native local rules. Whats gets a ticket on EF as horrible and inhuman racism, is a principle that has made this place into a booming economy and pretty patriotistic culture(s) with national pride. There has never been a moment of open borders here. Jobs are protected by bulletproof licensing, and not just with tough language requirements to weed out foreigners but also filters for relatively local nomads from other cantons. Things are so under control, that this place routinely says no to even these affluent westerners and their maneurism. Why? Racism? Of course not! Define it then, please.
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17.07.2018, 18:12
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Something that stunned me yesterday was Putin's chair gripping body language. The only time I do that is when I know I have to keep my cool and not lose my temper, no matter what. | | | | | | Quote: | |  | | | I noticed that too.
I suspect he was desperately trying not to start laughing maniacally. | | | | | Or piles?
| 
17.07.2018, 18:12
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | How can you say it's wrong without knowing the reference material?
For reference:
GMB
Sky News
Question Time
This Week
Channel 4 News
Andrew Marr Show
The Politics Show
etc...
Are all of the programmes 'the left'? | | | | | Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ.
So agreement alone does not differentiate between deep insight and just parroting the same stuff.
| 
17.07.2018, 18:15
| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | There are people who advocate mass movement of foreign populations into new areas in Europe/US, for the sake of "humanity". Instead of West trying to help in the conflict zones, it seems, which would have been the alternative. I am not saying it is a good one since it hasn't been exactly working up until now, either.
The illogical part of is, majority of us are all accepted guests and new citizens of a place, that has imho been the most protectionist about miniscule areas (municipalities even, not only cantons!), and where borders and the respect to native local law and conditions stil rule. It has proven to be very economical, the federation of small tight areas blooms. No? Why. Because nobody could ever really get in, unless strictly under quotas or willing to go by these native local rules. Whats gets a ticket on EF as horrible and inhuman racism, is a principle that has made this place into a booming economy and pretty patriotistic culture(s) with national pride. There has never been a moment of open borders here. Things are so under control, that this place routinely says no to even these affluent westerners and their maneurism. Why? Racism? Of course not! Define it then, please. | | | | | The population of Switzerland is 24% foreign (census 2013)
The population of the UK 12% foreign (census 2011)
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17.07.2018, 18:16
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President?
Wow, You do love to dish out the stereotypes, don't you? | Quote: |  | | | How do you cope for a description if the people who can't stand the shit show going on at the moment are not politically left? | | | | | people who can't stand the shit storm =/= proof that there is a revival of the lexicography of facism.
I don't approve of all the stuff going on for example. But I'm not trying to trace it all to fascism. | Quote: |  | | | Do you have to be left to find the whole Trump circus and Brexit disaster a giant facepalm on the great slate of historical events?
Seems "the left" is just a lazy catch-all for "people who don't see things as I do"  | | | | | Or that all those who don't agree with your view are fascists?
Inflationary applicability of terms?
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17.07.2018, 18:21
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: |  | | | The population of Switzerland is 24% foreign (census 2013)
The population of the UK 12% foreign (census 2011) | | | | | Sure... but they aren't sending their best people to the UK.
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17.07.2018, 18:21
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Collective guilttrips never solve anything. There are many decent people in the West who do nothing evil to anyone nor do they feel so evilly towards other races, as negatively you tried to paint them. This "accident of birth" as you put it...actually dissmisses one's attitude towards one's national identity. This collective push is marxist. Afluent West is certainly not kind to all if its citizens, as it is. | | | | | That’s like saying normal people in Nazi germany weren’t really Nazis because they didn’t wear Nazi uniforms. They collectively went along with it all, they might not have physically ganged up on those that didn’t agree and murdered them or forced them into submission, but they were equally complicit.
Btw, in case you can’t understand, which I don’t think you can. The reference to fascism is only partly related to immigration and race, there are many other indicators that are being used at the moment.
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17.07.2018, 18:23
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: |  | | | The population of Switzerland is 24% foreign (census 2013)
The population of the UK 12% foreign (census 2011) | | | | | You do realize that the definitions of "foreign" in both places differ. The road to CH passport is far from easy. I wouldn't call it racist.
| 
17.07.2018, 18:26
| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Wow, You do love to dish out the stereotypes, don't you?
people who can't stand the shit storm =/= proof that there is a revival of the lexicography of facism.
I don't approve of all the stuff going on for example. But I'm not trying to trace it all to fascism.
Or that all those who don't agree with your view are fascists?
Inflationary applicability of terms? | | | | | So help me out here - how do you come to your label of "left" in that case?
Bit confused at the reference to fascists, tbh. Where did I use the term fascist?
Just trying to pin down why anyone who raises their head above the parapet to question the more extreme opinions on here about immigration, Trump, Merkel, etc., is instantly shot down as "left", "liberal", sjw, or whatever other label-du-jour happens to come along.
Oh yeah, forgot about the favourite and special "virtue-signalling" label. | The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
17.07.2018, 18:28
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | There are people who advocate mass movement of foreign populations into new areas in Europe/US, for the sake of "humanity". Instead of West trying to help in the conflict zones, it seems, which would have been the alternative. I am not saying it is a good one since it hasn't been exactly working up until now, either.
The illogical part of is, majority of us are all accepted guests and new citizens of a place, that has imho been the most protectionist about miniscule areas (municipalities even, not only cantons!), and where borders and the respect to native local law and conditions still rule. It has proven to be very economical, the federation of small tight areas blooms. No? Why. Because nobody could ever really get in, unless strictly under quotas or willing to go by these native local rules. Whats gets a ticket on EF as horrible and inhuman racism, is a principle that has made this place into a booming economy and pretty patriotistic culture(s) with national pride. There has never been a moment of open borders here. Jobs are protected by bulletproof licensing, and not just with tough language requirements to weed out foreigners but also filters for relatively local nomads from other cantons. Things are so under control, that this place routinely says no to even these affluent westerners and their maneurism. Why? Racism? Of course not! Define it then, please. | | | | | Are you talking about Switzerland because I do not recognise it?
Switzerland belongs to both Schengen and FMOP and has 25% foreigners.
Not only does Switzerland not say no to affluent Westerners but the country is also full of Russian oligarchs and their families. | Quote: |  | | | According to data from the Russian central bank, Russian citizens transferred some $6.8 billion (CHF6.7 billion) to Switzerland in the first three quarters of 2014.
This was twice as much as in the same period in 2013.
Meanwhile, $4.7 billion was sent to Uzbekistan in 2014, down from $5 billion in 2013. | | | | | Source | 
17.07.2018, 18:30
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | That’s like saying normal people in Nazi germany weren’t really Nazis because they didn’t wear Nazi uniforms. They collectively went along with it all, they might not have physically ganged up on those that didn’t agree and murdered them or forced them into submission, but they were equally complicit.
Btw, in case you can’t understand, which I don’t think you can. The reference to fascism is only partly related to immigration and race, there are many other indicators that are being used at the moment. | | | | | Lol...it is a real treat to listen to an affluent westerner giving me a lecture on fascists. We, non affluent EEs, actually lived that crap. Sell your guilt trip elsewhere.
I know it came out harsh..but. People are coaxing others into attitudes that have nothing to do with past and all to do with now, it is really dangerous I think to try to label your opponent with these schematic accusations. Not everybody who doesn't agree with the solution Merkel tried to force or the left in the US are suggesting, is a racist, nazi or fascist. If we move away from these labels, we will understand eachother better, we can even maybe democraticly brainstorm?
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17.07.2018, 18:31
| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | You do realize that the definitions of "foreign" in both places differ. The road to CH passport is far from easy. I wouldn't call it racist. | | | | | You are quite right.
The British census counts all "foreign-born" permanent residents.
The Swiss census tallies by nationality of permanent residents.
So, you have inadvertently made my point even more profound - the 24% in Switzerland are actually foreigners, i.e. do not hold a Swiss passport. The 12% in Britain are the foreign-born permanent residents, so actually many of these 12% are actually now British citizens so the real figure is far lower!
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17.07.2018, 18:40
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | Lol...it is a real treat to listen to an affluent westerner giving me a lecture on fascists. We, non affluent EEs, actually lived that crap. Sell your guilt trip elsewhere. | | | | | Wow! That's phenomenally presumptive of you.
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17.07.2018, 18:41
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| | Re: Will Trump be a Good President? | Quote: | |  | | | That’s like saying normal people in Nazi germany weren’t really Nazis because they didn’t wear Nazi uniforms. They collectively went along with it all, they might not have physically ganged up on those that didn’t agree and murdered them or forced them into submission, but they were equally complicit.
Btw, in case you can’t understand, which I don’t think you can. The reference to fascism is only partly related to immigration and race, there are many other indicators that are being used at the moment. | | | | | Some factoids that probably mess with the bigger narrative here:
Mussolini didn't actually think much of the concept of race or racism: | Quote: |  | | | Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today.… National pride has no need of the delirium of race. (Talks with Mussolini (1932)) | | | | | He didn't like capitalism either | Quote: |  | | | To-day we can affirm that the capitalistic method of production is out of date. So is the doctrine of laissez-faire, the theoretical basis of capitalism… To-day we are taking a new and decisive step in the path of revolution. A revolution, in order to be great, must be a social revolution. | | | | | He liked Keynes | Quote: |  | | | Fascism entirely agrees with Mr. Maynard Keynes, despite the latter's prominent position as a Liberal. In fact, Mr. Keynes' excellent little book, The End of Laissez-Faire (1926) might, so far as it goes, serve as a useful introduction to fascist economics. There is scarcely anything to object to in it and there is much to applaud. | | | | | Source: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini
Of course you can also find quotes that contradict these to varying degrees. But let's say the definition is not as clear cut as it may seem. To me it seems there are elements of facism on both sides in this debate, as indeed there are in virtually any political debate. Let's not take out the tar brush too quickly.
Last edited by amogles; 17.07.2018 at 18:54.
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