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  #14301  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Something that stunned me yesterday was Putin's chair gripping body language. The only time I do that is when I know I have to keep my cool and not lose my temper, no matter what.
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I noticed that too.

I suspect he was desperately trying not to start laughing maniacally.
Or piles?
  #14302  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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How can you say it's wrong without knowing the reference material?
For reference:
GMB
Sky News
Question Time
This Week
Channel 4 News
Andrew Marr Show
The Politics Show
etc...

Are all of the programmes 'the left'?
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ.

So agreement alone does not differentiate between deep insight and just parroting the same stuff.
  #14303  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:15
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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There are people who advocate mass movement of foreign populations into new areas in Europe/US, for the sake of "humanity". Instead of West trying to help in the conflict zones, it seems, which would have been the alternative. I am not saying it is a good one since it hasn't been exactly working up until now, either.

The illogical part of is, majority of us are all accepted guests and new citizens of a place, that has imho been the most protectionist about miniscule areas (municipalities even, not only cantons!), and where borders and the respect to native local law and conditions stil rule. It has proven to be very economical, the federation of small tight areas blooms. No? Why. Because nobody could ever really get in, unless strictly under quotas or willing to go by these native local rules. Whats gets a ticket on EF as horrible and inhuman racism, is a principle that has made this place into a booming economy and pretty patriotistic culture(s) with national pride. There has never been a moment of open borders here. Things are so under control, that this place routinely says no to even these affluent westerners and their maneurism. Why? Racism? Of course not! Define it then, please.
The population of Switzerland is 24% foreign (census 2013)

The population of the UK 12% foreign (census 2011)
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  #14304  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:16
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

Wow, You do love to dish out the stereotypes, don't you?

Quote:
How do you cope for a description if the people who can't stand the shit show going on at the moment are not politically left?
people who can't stand the shit storm =/= proof that there is a revival of the lexicography of facism.

I don't approve of all the stuff going on for example. But I'm not trying to trace it all to fascism.

Quote:
Do you have to be left to find the whole Trump circus and Brexit disaster a giant facepalm on the great slate of historical events?

Seems "the left" is just a lazy catch-all for "people who don't see things as I do"
Or that all those who don't agree with your view are fascists?

Inflationary applicability of terms?
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  #14305  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:21
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The population of Switzerland is 24% foreign (census 2013)

The population of the UK 12% foreign (census 2011)
Sure... but they aren't sending their best people to the UK.
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  #14306  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:21
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Collective guilttrips never solve anything. There are many decent people in the West who do nothing evil to anyone nor do they feel so evilly towards other races, as negatively you tried to paint them. This "accident of birth" as you put it...actually dissmisses one's attitude towards one's national identity. This collective push is marxist. Afluent West is certainly not kind to all if its citizens, as it is.
Thatís like saying normal people in Nazi germany werenít really Nazis because they didnít wear Nazi uniforms. They collectively went along with it all, they might not have physically ganged up on those that didnít agree and murdered them or forced them into submission, but they were equally complicit.

Btw, in case you canít understand, which I donít think you can. The reference to fascism is only partly related to immigration and race, there are many other indicators that are being used at the moment.
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  #14307  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:23
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The population of Switzerland is 24% foreign (census 2013)

The population of the UK 12% foreign (census 2011)
You do realize that the definitions of "foreign" in both places differ. The road to CH passport is far from easy. I wouldn't call it racist.
  #14308  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:26
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Wow, You do love to dish out the stereotypes, don't you?

people who can't stand the shit storm =/= proof that there is a revival of the lexicography of facism.

I don't approve of all the stuff going on for example. But I'm not trying to trace it all to fascism.

Or that all those who don't agree with your view are fascists?

Inflationary applicability of terms?
So help me out here - how do you come to your label of "left" in that case?

Bit confused at the reference to fascists, tbh. Where did I use the term fascist?

Just trying to pin down why anyone who raises their head above the parapet to question the more extreme opinions on here about immigration, Trump, Merkel, etc., is instantly shot down as "left", "liberal", sjw, or whatever other label-du-jour happens to come along.

Oh yeah, forgot about the favourite and special "virtue-signalling" label.
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  #14309  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:28
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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There are people who advocate mass movement of foreign populations into new areas in Europe/US, for the sake of "humanity". Instead of West trying to help in the conflict zones, it seems, which would have been the alternative. I am not saying it is a good one since it hasn't been exactly working up until now, either.

The illogical part of is, majority of us are all accepted guests and new citizens of a place, that has imho been the most protectionist about miniscule areas (municipalities even, not only cantons!), and where borders and the respect to native local law and conditions still rule. It has proven to be very economical, the federation of small tight areas blooms. No? Why. Because nobody could ever really get in, unless strictly under quotas or willing to go by these native local rules. Whats gets a ticket on EF as horrible and inhuman racism, is a principle that has made this place into a booming economy and pretty patriotistic culture(s) with national pride. There has never been a moment of open borders here. Jobs are protected by bulletproof licensing, and not just with tough language requirements to weed out foreigners but also filters for relatively local nomads from other cantons. Things are so under control, that this place routinely says no to even these affluent westerners and their maneurism. Why? Racism? Of course not! Define it then, please.
Are you talking about Switzerland because I do not recognise it?

Switzerland belongs to both Schengen and FMOP and has 25% foreigners.

Not only does Switzerland not say no to affluent Westerners but the country is also full of Russian oligarchs and their families.

Quote:
According to data from the Russian central bank, Russian citizens transferred some $6.8 billion (CHF6.7 billion) to Switzerland in the first three quarters of 2014.
This was twice as much as in the same period in 2013.
Meanwhile, $4.7 billion was sent to Uzbekistan in 2014, down from $5 billion in 2013.
Source
  #14310  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:30
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Thatís like saying normal people in Nazi germany werenít really Nazis because they didnít wear Nazi uniforms. They collectively went along with it all, they might not have physically ganged up on those that didnít agree and murdered them or forced them into submission, but they were equally complicit.

Btw, in case you canít understand, which I donít think you can. The reference to fascism is only partly related to immigration and race, there are many other indicators that are being used at the moment.
Lol...it is a real treat to listen to an affluent westerner giving me a lecture on fascists. We, non affluent EEs, actually lived that crap. Sell your guilt trip elsewhere.

I know it came out harsh..but. People are coaxing others into attitudes that have nothing to do with past and all to do with now, it is really dangerous I think to try to label your opponent with these schematic accusations. Not everybody who doesn't agree with the solution Merkel tried to force or the left in the US are suggesting, is a racist, nazi or fascist. If we move away from these labels, we will understand eachother better, we can even maybe democraticly brainstorm?
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  #14311  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:31
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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You do realize that the definitions of "foreign" in both places differ. The road to CH passport is far from easy. I wouldn't call it racist.
You are quite right.

The British census counts all "foreign-born" permanent residents.

The Swiss census tallies by nationality of permanent residents.

So, you have inadvertently made my point even more profound - the 24% in Switzerland are actually foreigners, i.e. do not hold a Swiss passport. The 12% in Britain are the foreign-born permanent residents, so actually many of these 12% are actually now British citizens so the real figure is far lower!
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  #14312  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:40
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Lol...it is a real treat to listen to an affluent westerner giving me a lecture on fascists. We, non affluent EEs, actually lived that crap. Sell your guilt trip elsewhere.
Wow! That's phenomenally presumptive of you.
  #14313  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:41
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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That’s like saying normal people in Nazi germany weren’t really Nazis because they didn’t wear Nazi uniforms. They collectively went along with it all, they might not have physically ganged up on those that didn’t agree and murdered them or forced them into submission, but they were equally complicit.

Btw, in case you can’t understand, which I don’t think you can. The reference to fascism is only partly related to immigration and race, there are many other indicators that are being used at the moment.
Some factoids that probably mess with the bigger narrative here:

Mussolini didn't actually think much of the concept of race or racism:

Quote:
Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today.… National pride has no need of the delirium of race. (Talks with Mussolini (1932))
He didn't like capitalism either

Quote:
To-day we can affirm that the capitalistic method of production is out of date. So is the doctrine of laissez-faire, the theoretical basis of capitalism… To-day we are taking a new and decisive step in the path of revolution. A revolution, in order to be great, must be a social revolution.
He liked Keynes

Quote:
Fascism entirely agrees with Mr. Maynard Keynes, despite the latter's prominent position as a Liberal. In fact, Mr. Keynes' excellent little book, The End of Laissez-Faire (1926) might, so far as it goes, serve as a useful introduction to fascist economics. There is scarcely anything to object to in it and there is much to applaud.
Source: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

Of course you can also find quotes that contradict these to varying degrees. But let's say the definition is not as clear cut as it may seem. To me it seems there are elements of facism on both sides in this debate, as indeed there are in virtually any political debate. Let's not take out the tar brush too quickly.

Last edited by amogles; 17.07.2018 at 17:54.
  #14314  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:42
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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You are quite right.

The British census counts all "foreign-born" permanent residents.

The Swiss census tallies by nationality of permanent residents.

So, you have inadvertently made my point even more profound - the 24% in Switzerland are actually foreigners, i.e. do not hold a Swiss passport. The 12% in Britain are the foreign-born permanent residents, so actually many of these 12% are actually now British citizens so the real figure is far lower!
Since 1983 you can apply for the UK passsport if you are born there even if your parent isn't a UK citizen. The criteria here are tougher, watch the treads and ovations when one succeeds. Language, exam, community decides based on the level of integration. I wouldn't call it racist. It is not. If people want to control who gets let in the country and under which criteria, it is smart and democratic. It is not racist, and has nothing to do with one's race or ethnic origin. People here vote on everything. To shut up some parts of population and say you have no right to feel protective of your country, is undemocratic. I think race has very little to do with how open people are to changes. Maybe it is behavior..contributions , I don't know, really.

But to argue with people who have all the right to not want changes, that they must accept it, based on some vague guilt-trip and mess caused by incompetent governments decades ago or current ones in the places of conflict, will just reinforce people against the change.
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  #14315  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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So help me out here - how do you come to your label of "left" in that case?

Bit confused at the reference to fascists, tbh. Where did I use the term fascist?

Just trying to pin down why anyone who raises their head above the parapet to question the more extreme opinions on here about immigration, Trump, Merkel, etc., is instantly shot down as "left", "liberal", sjw, or whatever other label-du-jour happens to come along.
I was responding to Bluieangel's post. So ask Blueangel why the facist label came into this.

Look, Blueangel even thanked you for that post. So maybe you two can work that out between you?

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Oh yeah, forgot about the favourite and special "virtue-signalling" label.
Another tiresome and sweeping generalization?

Last edited by amogles; 17.07.2018 at 17:57.
  #14316  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:47
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Since 1983 you can apply for the UK passsport if you are born there even if your parent isn't a UK citizen. The criteria here are tougher, watch the treads and ovations when one succeeds. Language, exam, community decides based on the level of integration. I wouldn't call it racist. It is not. If people want to control who gets let in the country and under which criteria, it is smart and democratic. It is not racist, and has nothing to do with one's race or ethic origin. People here vote on everything. To shut up some parts of population and say you have no right to feel protective of your country, is undemocratic. I think race has very little to do with how open people are to changes. Maybe it is behavior..contributions , I don't know, really.

But to argue with people who have all the right to not want changes, that they must accept it, based on some vague guilt-trip and mess caused by incompetent governments decades ago or current ones in the places of conflict, will just reinforce people against the change.
What the hell are you chuntering about? This is genuinely like reading a Trump speech. Why do you keep inserting race into your rants, we are talking about nationality.

Newsflash, people born in the UK are considered native born and are not included in the foreigners count.

People here for 50 years who haven't undertaken the citizenship test are still considered foreigners.

I genuinely can't decipher your point.
  #14317  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:47
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Thatís like saying normal people in Nazi germany werenít really Nazis because they didnít wear Nazi uniforms. They collectively went along with it all, they might not have physically ganged up on those that didnít agree and murdered them or forced them into submission, but they were equally complicit.
That seems a good analogy for the argument that not all Leave voters in the EU referendum were racists. The anti-immigration message of the Leave campaign was impossible to ignore, and in the end, supposedly non-racist Leave voters got into the same boat as Britain First, the EDL, the BNP and UKIP. Unless they were living under a rock, they must have known they were doing that. The votes of the people preferring not to think of themselves as racists would have been indistinguishable from those of the racists.
  #14318  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:51
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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That seems a good analogy for the argument that not all Leave voters in the EU referendum were racists. The anti-immigration message of the Leave campaign was impossible to ignore, and in the end, supposedly non-racist Leave voters got into the same boat as Britain First, the EDL, the BNP and UKIP. Unless they were living under a rock, they must have known they were doing that. The votes of the people preferring not to think of themselves as racists would have been indistinguishable from those of the racists.
This argument is disingenious.

If you go through the small print of the manifestors of BNP etc, I'm sure you'll find individual statements you would tend to agree with.

Should you change your position just to disagree with them?
  #14319  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:55
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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This argument is disingenious.

If you go through the small print of the manifestors of BNP etc, I'm sure you'll find individual statements you would tend to agree with.

Should you change your position just to disagree with them?
Definitely not, but you need to accept that your belief in whatever part of Brexit you liked is stronger than your disagreement with overt racism.
  #14320  
Old 17.07.2018, 17:56
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He's awake...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...25830298456066

Is he claiming that the content of a press conference that was broadcast live Worldwide, is fake news? Nurse!!!
He is also tweeting that the NATO members are and will be paying much more money "only because of me". The only fly in the ointment is NATO officials and members are denying anything has changed on the payment scene since the decisions at the Wales Summit in 2014!!

Ripples about "the Putin summit" continue with even the Wall Street Journal editorial board who are normally Trump supporters publishing "It was a personal and 'national embarrassment'".
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