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View Poll Results: Dissolve the EU?
Yes 16 21.33%
Yes but keep the EUR 3 4.00%
Yes but keep the Schengen agreement 6 8.00%
Yes but keep both the Schengen agreement and the EUR 2 2.67%
No 36 48.00%
No but drop the EUR (just for k_and_e because he/she is special) 7 9.33%
Yes but keep EEA (everybody is a precious special one today) 5 6.67%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 22.12.2016, 11:53
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Re: Dissolve the EU

The Poll seems to suggest more people are pro EU, but the most active of Forum users seem to be very anti EU, is there a correlation going on here?
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  #62  
Old 22.12.2016, 11:58
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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The Poll seems to suggest more people are pro EU, but the most active of Forum users seem to be very anti EU, is there a correlation going on here?
Some people have a problem standing up for their true opinions? The poll should reveal the names ..... but then probably only a view would have voted
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  #63  
Old 22.12.2016, 12:13
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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The Poll seems to suggest more people are pro EU, but the most active of Forum users seem to be very anti EU, is there a correlation going on here?
those who think and write: anti EU
those who just click a button in a poll: pro EU

simples, really.
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  #64  
Old 22.12.2016, 13:13
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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I am not a fan of the current setup. I would much rather go United States of Europe or Swiss-style confederate government, where certain matters are exclusive or 90% competence of the states/countries, and the federal government deals with certain others.

When I say the above, people tell me - but a little bit in that direction was better than nothing, no? Not so sure. I think it's a half-a**ed effort.

I really like the economic cooperation and I like the Euro, but we should have had a uniform fiscal policy to accompany a uniform monetary policy to begin with. I am not very optimistic as to the future of the EU in its current form, to be honest.
The Euro was a huge mistake, they should never have put in a single currency purely for political reasons. If they really wanted a single currency, then the should have put in the accompanying fiscal policy at the same time. In reality, this will never happen as it would imply massive structural payments from the rich states to the poor states.

Whereas Switzerland is happy to make large inter-cantonal transfers, I don't see Germany or the rest of the rich EU states being happy to make anywhere near the level of structural transfers required.

Let's face it, there is no solidarity between people of the different EU countries. Some pro-EU may talk a good game, but if it really comes down to reaching into their own pockets and lowering their standard of living and wealth to an average EU level, they will not do it. Heck, Germany aren't even willing to take measures to get Greece out of its economic death spiral.
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  #65  
Old 22.12.2016, 13:42
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Sorry to disappoint you Paddy, but I think you'll find that the UK, America and Russia did the Middle East and the end of Soviet Union and passing of Tito and whole bunch of Ethnic issues did the Balkans. The EU would have been more then happy to stay out of the wars its member states have been dragged into for political reasons. The history of Europe pre EU was one of almost constant conflict and economic uncertainty. The current economic crisis has more to do with the banks and globalisation of tax dodging mega-corporations then EU policy.
That's not the point; people are arguing that the EU had prevented war in Europe, which is clearly not the case, irrespective of the cause.
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  #66  
Old 22.12.2016, 14:39
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Re: Dissolve the EU

There are still many unresolved ethnic / border issues in Europe and they will stay like that because they are unresolvable.
I was born and grew up in Yugoslavia and I still can't understand how we could go from a friendly open society to the mad chauvinistic killing in just few years. If/when EU is no more I will head to the opposite side of the world, I already checked some plots in Kerikeri
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  #67  
Old 22.12.2016, 14:51
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Whereas Switzerland is happy to make large inter-cantonal transfers
Yeah? I guess your average Zuger/in is about as happy about it as your average German would be. In the Romandie, you're probably right...
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  #68  
Old 22.12.2016, 15:02
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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That's not the point; people are arguing that the EU had prevented war in Europe, which is clearly not the case, irrespective of the cause.
Ahhh, but how do we know that a unified Europe did not prevent further wars in Europe? I am afraid we can't turn back time and start the game over and see if the outcome would have been different under different circumstances! but half of the continent was for at least the first half of the grand experiment not politically aligned to our way of thinking! So the USSR were kept at bay by a unified political entity and NATO. It's easy to see why Putin was overjoyed at Brexit and is probably gleefully waiting for what you all seem to be wishing for to happen too. There are certainly huge shifts in geopolitics occurring across the globe at the moment, I would say for us in the west it's really not moving in the right direction, our mentality is regressing, and that is going to have huge
implications politically, diplomatically, economically to us all, and I believe negatively, time will tell all.
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Old 22.12.2016, 15:21
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Ahhh, but how do we know that a unified Europe did not prevent further wars in Europe?
We don't, but that doesn't mean it did. This is logic of the most simple kind.

With evidence to the contrary there's acutal reason to say the claim is indeed false.
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Old 22.12.2016, 15:22
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Ahhh, but how do we know that a unified Europe did not prevent further wars in Europe?
I could claim this rock keeps tigers away.
Ohh. How does it work?
It doesn't work!
Hmm.
But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
Lisa, I want to buy your rock!
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  #71  
Old 22.12.2016, 16:07
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Ahhh, but how do we know that a unified Europe did not prevent further wars in Europe?
Good question, particularly in the context of Spain, Greece and Portugal & their political form before joining "the club" as well as America vs the USSR in Europe.
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  #72  
Old 22.12.2016, 17:04
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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I would say for us in the west it's really not moving in the right direction, our mentality is regressing, and that is going to have huge implications politically, diplomatically, economically to us all, and I believe negatively, time will tell all.
Agreed. Main problem: People seem to see only two directions; Forward and backward. The call for complete new thinking has not been heard yet.
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Old 22.12.2016, 17:25
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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The Poll seems to suggest more people are pro EU, but the most active of Forum users seem to be very anti EU, is there a correlation going on here?
Sadly there's an increasing alt-right tendency amongst many active users
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  #74  
Old 22.12.2016, 17:41
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Sadly there's an increasing alt-right tendency amongst many active users
They must be getting older
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  #75  
Old 22.12.2016, 18:09
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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That's not the point; people are arguing that the EU had prevented war in Europe, which is clearly not the case, irrespective of the cause.
Instead of having wars fought across borders, the EU has just increased the likelihood of future wars being fought within them.
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Old 22.12.2016, 20:13
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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The Euro was a huge mistake, they should never have put in a single currency purely for political reasons. If they really wanted a single currency, then the should have put in the accompanying fiscal policy at the same time. In reality, this will never happen as it would imply massive structural payments from the rich states to the poor states.
Oh for heavens sake they already do! One example is the structural fund, then there is the fiscal pact among the Euro group countries, there is the fact that sovereign currency has given the U.K. no advantage, the fact that US states are anything but evenly matched, to say nothing of the U.K. and yet all we here is the same only nonsense trotted out again and again....

If we were to apply the same analysis to the U.K. we could conclude that it is likel to disappear within the next 10 years! After all they are facing a projected deficit of about 120b plus a further bill of about 60b on exiting the EU, there is little cohesion between the regions, economic inequality requires wealth transfers, there is constitutional uncertainties as to how the country is governed, it's unlikely they will reach a trade agreement with their major partner in the next 10 years, communities are breaking down with a distinct rise in hate crime, oh and political leadership is lacking at a crucial moment.
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  #77  
Old 22.12.2016, 21:41
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Oh for heavens sake they already do!
Yes, I'm well aware of the existing structural funds.

As for the UK, wealth is already distributed through the existing taxation and budget system.
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Old 23.12.2016, 09:51
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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Yeah? I guess your average Zuger/in is about as happy about it as your average German would be. In the Romandie, you're probably right...
It's also a question of "how much", the complaints are rather recent. And don't ignore AHV, usually income is much higher in the cities than in rural areas hence an exaggerated description is that the citydwellers pay the farmers old-age income, which amounts to huge transfers from the city Kantons to the rurals.

Likewise taxes and transfers on the federal level.
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Old 23.12.2016, 15:10
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Re: Dissolve the EU

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There are still many unresolved ethnic / border issues in Europe and they will stay like that because they are unresolvable.
I was born and grew up in Yugoslavia and I still can't understand how we could go from a friendly open society to the mad chauvinistic killing in just few years. If/when EU is no more I will head to the opposite side of the world, I already checked some plots in Kerikeri
late seventies we went on vacation to Jugoslwien and even then the divide was present, bubbling and fermenting under Tito´s lid. The impression I got was that Jugoslavia was just waiting for Tito to shuffle off this mortal coil so that the states could start settling old scores. The breakup and civil war was going to happen no matter what.
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Old 03.01.2017, 10:16
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Re: Dissolve the EU

I would drop the EUR, in the sense that some countries should leave the Eurozone. It works for Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, Slovakia, and maybe Finland and the Baltic States. The Czech should actually adopt the Euro imho but it's up to them. France, Spain and Portugal should seriously consider leaving the Eurozone. Italy should do it for sure.

Additionally:
I would kick Ireland and Luxembourg out of the EU, if they want to be tax heavens they can do so but outside the Single Market. Luxembourg could be given the option to become part of Belgium or Germany instead, but it's up to them. They are not a nation anyway.
I would drop the Bilaterals with Switzerland because they complicate things too much. Switzerland can choose to join the EEA or not be integrated.
I would kick out of the EU countries that do not respect human rights. I am talking to you Hungary and Poland.
Finally, the Balkan countries (Greece, Bulgaria, Romania) that are not part of the EU as a continuous geographical mass in Europe, should leave the EU and join the EEA, without participating in Schengen. This would allow better control of boarders and would also give Greece the right to deport refugees and immigrants. The same for Cyprus and Malta, because they are too tiny to have a vote in the EU. Let them be part of the Single Market through the EEA.

I think this would make the whole thing work much better.
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