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Old 18.01.2017, 16:19
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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I disagree with him on many things, from drones to Guantanamo. But honestly: Americans seem to believe that the president is some sort of supreme ruler... well, he isn't. He relies on congress. And no president ever had a worse opposition than Obama did. Given that he had no chance to have even open and honest discussions with the other party on pretty much any serious topic was he remarkably successful by implementing stuff with excutive orders where possible.
The U.S President is a politician. he is not the first president to face a hostile congress. He has plenty of cards and he played them not extremly well.

This is what is looked like 8 years ago:

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Old 18.01.2017, 16:24
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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I don't think he was referring to Chelsea.
Ah, some other obscure reference then. Ok.
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  #23  
Old 18.01.2017, 16:25
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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The U.S President is a politician. he is not the first president to face a hostile congress. He has plenty of cards and he played them not extremly well.
1. I don't think there was ever a congress that categorically blocked the president and did even block any serious discussion. The GOP was basically "against", no matter what... which other administration was in the same situation?
2. Where did he not play his cards well? What did you expect him to do in what area? http://obamaachievements.org/list/
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Old 18.01.2017, 16:52
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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1. I don't think there was ever a congress that categorically blocked the president and did even block any serious discussion. The GOP was basically "against", no matter what... which other administration was in the same situation?
2. Where did he not play his cards well? What did you expect him to do in what area? http://obamaachievements.org/list/
That is just check and balance in a democracy, and there is nothing wrong with that.

He practically instructed his appointees to bend laws and ignore them at times, where their execution is suppose to be according to established laws. You'll see this in border control, and the funnelling of weaponry to Mexican cartels, called the "Fast and Furious" program.

He also had a scheme going on modifying laws without legislative approval. A party files suit against an agency, prior to trial, they pre-negotiate the changes in the law or regulation without oversight.

Finally, there was a large manner of speaking that everything was copacetic, and that he was doing a great job, while people didn't really see results. Jobs and inner city conditions, racial strife, and practically encouraging BLM.

Most of it is a measurement of what it was like before, against today as he is leaving. Apart from bullet points, what truly improved and what got worse?
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Old 18.01.2017, 17:06
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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1. I don't think there was ever a congress that categorically blocked the president and did even block any serious discussion. The GOP was basically "against", no matter what... which other administration was in the same situation?
2. Where did he not play his cards well? What did you expect him to do in what area? http://obamaachievements.org/list/
Take Harry Truman who lost both senate and congress but managed to create NATO.

Obama could have done more to reduce violence and improve black-white relations, he could have kept his word about Syria and chemical weapons, block the russian invasion to Crimea, support Georgia...
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Old 18.01.2017, 17:52
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Obama lost all credibility in the lost month of his presidency
I guess that why he is now more popular then ever, or..?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/18/po...-cnn-orc-poll/
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Old 18.01.2017, 18:59
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

Just a wee correction here. Obama did not pardon Manning. He commuted the prison sentence. What's the diff?

A pardon removes any conviction and it's as if the crime was never committed.

Commutation means Manning will get out of prison in May, but she is still guilty of the crime.
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  #28  
Old 18.01.2017, 19:07
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Just a wee correction here. Obama did not pardon Manning. He commuted the prison sentence. What's the diff?

A pardon removes any conviction and it's as if the crime was never committed.

Commutation means Manning will get out of prison in May, but she is still guilty of the crime.
It means what he did is still a crime, and Assange is still culpable. Assange agreed to be extradited for trial. Otherwise, they would have little to charge Assange with.
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Old 18.01.2017, 19:13
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Just a wee correction here. Obama did not pardon Manning. He commuted the prison sentence. What's the diff?

A pardon removes any conviction and it's as if the crime was never committed.

Commutation means Manning will get out of prison in May, but she is still guilty of the crime.
Even with a pardon, a person would still be guilty of the crime.
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How do pardons and commutations work?

Mr Obama has commuted 1,385 sentences and issued 212 pardons, more than the total granted by the past 12 presidents combined.

In America, a pardon not only lifts the sentence but removes other penalties such as the bar on convicted felons sitting on federal juries, and state-level prohibitions on such things as voting or possession of firearms.

A commutation means the sentence is lifted but the civil handicaps outlined above remain.

Neither a pardon nor a commutation is an acknowledgment of innocence
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38659068
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Old 18.01.2017, 20:42
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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It means what he did is still a crime, and Assange is still culpable. Assange agreed to be extradited for trial. Otherwise, they would have little to charge Assange with.
FYI, the U.S. has never even requested that Assange be extradited. Heck, he's not even charged with anything (yet). The Swedes want him extradited though.

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Even with a pardon, a person would still be guilty of the crime.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38659068
I could have phrased better. Technically yes, a pardoned person is still guilty but the net effect of a pardon is as if the person is innocent because all the civil rights are restored and no further penalties are due.

Manning's commutation only means she'll get out of prison early and all other penalties are still in place.

I wonder if it lets the taxpayers off the hook for the gender reassignment surgery, as she'll no longer be in military custody?
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  #31  
Old 18.01.2017, 20:42
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

Being a tranny has fast become the new race card. It wasn't so long ago that traitors were hanged. And yet this he/she gets 35 years commuted to nothing because he was confused about his gender. Manning will be lucky if one of the operatives he put in extreme danger doesn't catch up with him.
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  #32  
Old 18.01.2017, 20:45
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

Bluff been called, and Assange has bottled it. Wanker.

Assange lawyer: Manning commutation doesn't meet extradition offer's conditions
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Old 18.01.2017, 20:47
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

I was over the moon to learn of Mannings commutation this morning. I remember how disgusted I was watching the collateral murder tape on wikileaks that documented the murders of the Reuters journalists, the good samaritan who stopped to help them and the injuries to the nine and six year old children in the van targeted by the Apache gunships.

I'm glad Manning will soon be free, if only the cowardly scumbags in the gunships and those involved in covering up the event were held to account everything would be perfect.

Usual suspects, you know where the groan button is, fill yer boots.
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  #34  
Old 18.01.2017, 20:50
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Wanker.
Which wanker, Obama?

Tom
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Old 18.01.2017, 20:50
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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I'm glad Manning will soon be free.
I'm sure his victims feel the same.

Tom
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  #36  
Old 18.01.2017, 21:00
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Which wanker, Obama?

Tom
Well Assange, but Obama is one too. The hypocrisy of it all. He and his party were screaming blue murder before the election that emails had been hacked and how unfair it all was. And now he commutes the sentence of a guy that basically did the same. Only for the entire country.

Last edited by Loz1983; 18.01.2017 at 21:36.
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Old 18.01.2017, 21:35
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

Perhaps, just perhaps mind you, governments should not do things that would compromise them in the first place.
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Old 18.01.2017, 21:43
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Perhaps, just perhaps mind you, governments should not do things that would compromise them in the first place.
Governments ALWAYS do though, even Swiss governments. Which is why the state should be kept as small as possible.

I actually welcomed the Wikileaks themselves, it made for some interesting reading. But this fella was stupid enough to get caught and, from an American perspective, has absolutely no right to be released this year. It's the same drug smugglers who get caught in the Far East who then whine to Amnesty International when they're faced with the hangman's noose.
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Old 18.01.2017, 21:47
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Perhaps, just perhaps mind you, governments should not do things that would compromise them in the first place.
In the course of war, compromising one's own side reasonably constitutes treason. In the case of crimes, I assume there are and were proper channels to report them. Can we reasonably say he chose the path of treason?
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Old 18.01.2017, 22:33
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Re: The pardon of Manning by Obama

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Take Harry Truman who lost both senate and congress but managed to create NATO.

Obama could have done more to reduce violence and improve black-white relations, he could have kept his word about Syria and chemical weapons, block the russian invasion to Crimea, support Georgia...
Hmm how could Obama have done any of the things you've mentioned? as if any other world leaders would have done anything either or would any other previous or future presidents get involved in the things you've mentioned.

Started a war against Russia in Syria or interfered in Ukraine and starting a war over Russia's illegal invasion in Crimea. You can't provoke Russia too much, Putin is very unpredictable and its still a nuclear superpower.

He did order the Navy to sail through the Spratleys in direct challenge of Chinas claim to those international waters.

As for the racial problems in America, I am sure he, as a black president did as much as he could, as you can imagine its not like he could do what Mugabe did or what has happened in South Africa to change the balance of Black and White, I doubt he would even have wanted to do that. He did a huge amount by showing America, that a Black man could be more eloquent and civil and brilliant then most of that long list of white Presidents, also in showing those who are marginalised by race, that its possible to not only succeed but go all the way to the top. The racial issues in America have a long long history and there is a lot of poverty associated to it too, look at how poorly the disaster in New Orleans was handled.

So if Obama is making good out of his final days in office, pardoning Chelsea Manning is certainly one of the better actions.
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