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  #161  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:28
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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The "Islam" that you and the tabloids are constantly trumpeting about is not a religion, just as much that the IRA wasn't "Catholicism".


tell that to the guys who are chopping off heads while shouting 'allahu akbar'
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  #162  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:28
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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No. Freedom of speech entitels everyone to express an opinion, not to create panic.
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  #163  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:33
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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tell that to the guys who are chopping off heads while shouting 'allahu akbar'
So? They can shout "runpI' loQ" it doesn't mean they are Klingon, does it?

I could run out into the street now and whack an old lady with my umbrella shouting "allahu akbar". It will probably get me arrested and definitely get me investigated, maybe sectioned, and my name in the paper but I'm about as Islamic as I am a yoga teacher.
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  #164  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:39
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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What about when you read surveys that show over half of British Muslims think homosexuality should not be legal? Is that real Islam or tabloid Islam?
They can think what they like. Privately I think anyone who is cruel to cute fluffy animals should be strung up by their nipples.

The point is that they don't DO anything.

There are plenty of white Christians that think homosexuality is an abomination and shouldn't be legal, don't you know..?

I recall the most vocal people demonstrating about gay marriage were mainly Christians quoting from their bible that it was all very wrong and shouldn't be allowed.
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  #165  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:44
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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For all the alt-right out there that still want to blame this on uncontrolled immigration, seems the guy was born Adrian Elms. I don't yet know but it sounds like a pretty English name to me.
That too struck me as ironic.

All of a sudden, according to thze papers, Adrian Elms is a more English name than, say, Hussein Iqbal.

Who's the racist now?
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  #166  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:48
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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Just like I'm entitled to stand up in a crowded cinema and start shouting 'Fire..Fire!'
I went to a performance of Herr Biedermann und die Brandstifter.

There was a guy who stood up and shouted precisely that.

Should that bit be censored from the play?

Should it be replaced by a beep like swearwords in American sitcoms?
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  #167  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:49
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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So? They can shout "runpI' loQ" it doesn't mean they are Klingon, does it?

I could run out into the street now and whack an old lady with my umbrella shouting "allahu akbar". It will probably get me arrested and definitely get me investigated, maybe sectioned, and my name in the paper but I'm about as Islamic as I am a yoga teacher.
To them, it is all about religion. Yes, they will kill infidels and blow themselves up to become martyrs and have the virgins in heaven, etc. They are not pretending to cut heads off.

To deny that they are Islamists is cognitive dissonance. Like Aesop's Fox and the Grapes:

"A Fox one day spied a beautiful bunch of ripe grapes hanging from a vine trained along the branches of a tree. The grapes seemed ready to burst with juice, and the Fox’s mouth watered as he gazed longingly at them.

The bunch hung from a high branch, and the Fox had to jump for it. The first time he jumped he missed it by a long way. So he walked off a short distance and took a running leap at it, only to fall short once more. Again and again he tried, but in vain.

Now he sat down and looked at the grapes in disgust.

“What a fool I am,” he said. “Here I am wearing myself out to get a bunch of sour grapes that are not worth gaping for.”

And off he walked very, very scornfully."



The liberal, Christian West wants to eat the grapes (assimilate the Muslims).
When it can't reach them all, it says 'well those aren't true grapes anyway'.

Like a guy getting rejected by a girl at a bar, then telling himself that she must be a lesbian. lol.
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  #168  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:50
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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And Tommy Robinson, Farage, the deaded Hopkins are not? Panic and hatred.
And I'm sure you don't have one inch of hate in your heart for any of them.
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  #169  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:52
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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The point is that there has never been such a vicious and toxic global backlash against a single religion in modern times.
The difference between "The Troubles" and Isalamic terrorism is that on the one side the violence had a political aim or sorts and was mainly concentrated in Norn Iron but sometimes spilled over into the UK and Ireland. With Islamic terrorism the violence is done in the name of the religion all over the world. Hence the backlash.
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  #170  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:53
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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As for Islam, I don't think the religion needs any reformation. The "Islam" that you and the tabloids are constantly trumpeting about is not a religion, just as much that the IRA wasn't "Catholicism".
I can't agree. ISIS is at it's core religious based and propagates the hatred of other religions. Unionism/Republicanism has at it's core a political objective, the fact it falls along religious membership is more incidental than anything else.

Irish Republicanism springs from the United Irishmen of 1798, an organisation which had a significant number of prominent protestant members. And indeed today the Sinn Fein leadership honour Wolfe Tone, a protestant, as the father of republicanism!
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  #171  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:55
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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The difference between "The Troubles" and Isalamic terrorism is that on the one side the violence had a political aim or sorts and was mainly concentrated in Norn Iron but sometimes spilled over into the UK and Ireland. With Islamic terrorism the violence is done in the name of the religion all over the world. Hence the backlash.
So Islamic State has no political agenda at all?
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  #172  
Old 24.03.2017, 11:57
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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I can't agree. ISIS is at it's core religious based and propagates the hatred of other religions. Unionism/Republicanism has at it's core a political objective, the fact it falls along religious membership is more incidental than anything else.

Irish Republicanism springs from the United Irishmen of 1798, an organisation which had a significant number of prominent protestant members. And indeed today the Sinn Fein leadership honour Wolfe Tone, a protestant, as the father of republicanism!
Of course. Plenty more examples out there.

The problem is that when discussing the NI situation, the terms Catholc and Protestant are often used as shorthand to represent the two communities, even though this description is innacurate, and many people on both sides are probably not particularly religious one way or the other.
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  #173  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:05
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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Of course. Plenty more examples out there.

The problem is that when discussing the NI situation, the terms Catholc and Protestant are often used as shorthand to represent the two communities, even though this description is innacurate, and many people on both sides are probably not particularly religious one way or the other.
And do you think Adrian Elms was particularly religious, a man who killed 4 innocent people in cold blood completely contradicting every tenet of Islam and repulsing Muslims and non-Muslims alike?

Its like a thug who just wants to kick heads in, so he joins the Millwall FC firm. He couldn't even name the team's goalie, but will scream 'Millwall till I die!!' whilst he's smashing someone's head in. This is Adrian Elms.
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  #174  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:05
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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They can think what they like. Privately I think anyone who is cruel to cute fluffy animals should be strung up by their nipples.

The point is that they don't DO anything.
Well that's simply not true. Here's an old article discussing the issues that you choose to ignore by keeping your head in the sand.

But let's pretend they don't do anything, wouldn't it still be reasonable to suggest that in modern Britain, a religion that advocates punishment for homosexuality (and the majority of it's followers seem to support the idea) is in need of reform?
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  #175  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:07
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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So Islamic State has no political agenda at all?
Are Islamic State the only group carrying out Islamic terrorism?
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  #176  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:12
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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Well that's simply not true. Here's an old article discussing the issues that you choose to ignore by keeping your head in the sand.

But let's pretend they don't do anything, wouldn't it still be reasonable to suggest that in modern Britain, a religion that advocates punishment for homosexuality (and the majority of it's followers seem to support the idea) is in need of reform?
But the thread is about extreme violence, isn't it?

50% of British Muslims might well be "against homosexuality" but how many are beheading gays in the street? How many are mowing them down in a 4x4?

I'm not saying it's not awful that if you are a Muslim and gay at the same time you aren't going to come in for some stick from your community and also from the wider population but it's not really relevant to this thread, is it?

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Are Islamic State the only group carrying out Islamic terrorism?
They did in the attack covered in this thread.
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  #177  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:17
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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That too struck me as ironic.

All of a sudden, according to thze papers, Adrian Elms is a more English name than, say, Hussein Iqbal.

Who's the racist now?
Completely missing the point again. Where have I said that Hussein Iqbal couldn't be English?

Surely even you can't deny that an "Adrian Elms" is statistically considerably less likely to be an immigrant than a "Hussein Iqbal"? However all those figureheads so beloved of alt-right have been very fast to blame the incident on immigration. Something that now looks highly unlikely.
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  #178  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:18
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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But the thread is about extreme violence, isn't it?
I simply asked whether you thought Islam was in need of reform and when you replied you thought it didn't, I was just curious as how you came to your conclusion.

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50% of British Muslims might well be "against homosexuality" but how many are beheading gays in the street? How many are mowing them down in a 4x4?

I'm not saying it's not awful that if you are a Muslim and gay at the same time you aren't going to come in for some stick from your community and also from the wider population but it's not really relevant to this thread, is it?
Again:

Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that in modern Britain, a religion that advocates punishment for homosexuality (and the majority of it's followers seem to support the idea) is in need of reform?
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  #179  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:29
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

Before this thread derails any further, let's keep to the facts:
There is a very small violent Muslim group responsible for terrorist attacks. this group can (and mostly is) monitored by state authorities and most of their plans are foiled.

How much passive support they get from the larger Muslim community (out of fear or sympathy) is a different matter.

Instead of debatibng, we can experiment: any volunteers for standing outside a well visited mainstream mosque in Birmingham with a sign "There is no god" ?
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  #180  
Old 24.03.2017, 12:32
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Re: Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

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Instead of debating, we can experiment: any volunteers for standing outside a well visited mainstream mosque in Birmingham with a sign "There is no god" ?
Couldn't we nominate people? I think that would be more democratic.
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