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  #141  
Old 12.04.2017, 16:35
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Re: United Airlines

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At the risk of outing myself as a fascist, I agree with Reb.

We don't know the whole story.
The press and twitterdom is having a witchhunt extraordinair.
The guy didn't deserve to have the snot beat out of him, but neither is there any indication that is what happened.

What I see, and hear, in the videos is a passenger completely flipped out. Regardless of what happened previous to the video, this is not a person I would like to be on the same flight with. People who've gone that wrangie don't calm down after a Dr. Pepper and a couple of bags of salted snacks.

It's fairly simple, from a game theory standpoint: When an armed person (be they a peace officer or not) asks you to do something, just comply. Resisting, arguing, or anything other than just doing as asked/told is only going to make the situation worse than it already is. If your rights have been abrogated then you can argue the point later with a judge, but once the situation has reached the point that 3 officers are demanding emphatically that you leave your seat, you are literally wasting your breath. The Plod doesn't back down once it's got that far - they escalate... and believe me, they have a lot more headroom and backup than an individual.
Uh-oh.



The Daily Mail just paid out $3 million plus costs to Melania Trump for falsely alleging that she was on the game. This could also be rather expensive.
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  #142  
Old 12.04.2017, 16:47
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Re: United Airlines

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Uh-oh.



The Daily Mail just paid out $3 million plus costs to Melania Trump for falsely alleging that she was on the game. This could also be rather expensive.
If this is true then I would hope a couple of posters in this thread now feel a bit silly for just accepting any bit of trash news and immediately jumping to conclusions.
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  #143  
Old 12.04.2017, 16:51
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Re: United Airlines

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If this is true then I would hope a couple of posters in this thread now feel a bit silly for just accepting any bit of trash news and immediately jumping to conclusions.
Come on - all those small Asian types look the same. It is an easy mistake to make.

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  #144  
Old 12.04.2017, 17:07
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Re: United Airlines

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Anyway, I will be interested to see how the legal case pans out and what the precise terms and conditions were for his flight.

I might expect that people can be denied boarding - but once a passenger is boarded, I wonder under what circumstances they can be forcefully removed from a plane.

No doubt, the airlines will try to cite 'safety reasons' or 'disruptive behaviour' but other than these pretenses, I wonder if they really have a solid justification for forceful removal.
Their rules are covered in an interesting article here:

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/unit...ing-passenger/

So basically calling it denied boarding is clearly b*****ks, the guy was boarded by all possible measures. Their policy once boarded gave them no right to throw him off, unless you count goading him into breaking the rules.
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  #145  
Old 12.04.2017, 17:32
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Re: United Airlines

We should stop with those united jokes... they're getting dragged out. But then there's this:

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  #146  
Old 12.04.2017, 18:07
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Re: United Airlines

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though I don't speak Vietnamese, Thanh Duc and Anh Duy look as if they could be the English spellings of the same Vietnamese name.
Erm, no? They are not like a Mr Lee and a Mr Li... they actually look quite different?
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  #147  
Old 12.04.2017, 18:12
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Re: United Airlines

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I fail to see what more there is to know:
- guy has a legal contract, ticket and seat
- guy was behaving himself
- UA wanted four seats for their own convenience so picked four, perhaps randomly, who they told to unboard
- guy refused, insisted on getting his contract fulfilled as originally agreed upon, and got beat up as a consequence

This was no overbooking, no emergency or safety issue, no error in seat assignment. UA wanted the seats for their own convenience and were too tight to get four passengers to volunteer by increasing the reward.

While the pilot appears to have the power to force the remaining fourth passenger off board isn't the issue, or only partially - it's just not right. Airlines are to be bound to their contracts just like every other person.
hopefully this incident might catalyse some regulation in this area to prevent airlines from overbooking in the first place, or only allowing voluntary removal for compensation in case of overbooking.
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  #148  
Old 12.04.2017, 18:16
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Re: United Airlines

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I think UA had every right to decide that he should disembark from one of their flights
Why do you think that? How do you differentiate this from my bus example?
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  #149  
Old 12.04.2017, 18:20
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Re: United Airlines

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Their rules are covered in an interesting article here:

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/unit...ing-passenger/

So basically calling it denied boarding is clearly b*****ks, the guy was boarded by all possible measures. Their policy once boarded gave them no right to throw him off, unless you count goading him into breaking the rules.
Thanks. This article clearly spells out a couple of the points I tried to make:

1. the passenger was already boarded so trying to invoke rules on refusal to board may not be relevant.

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This denied boarding rule, and similar rules applying to Great Britain and the European Union, only permit denying boarding, not removing a passenger who has already boarded. The situations under which airlines are permitted to have a passenger who has already been boarded disembark are contained in a completely separate section the United’s COC entitled “Refusal of Transport.” Rule 21, entitled “Refusal of Transport,” is very different
2. Trying to use other rules may depend on rather flimsy excuses:

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Finally, it appears that United is seeking to blame the passenger, claiming that when asked to give up his seat, he acted belligerently – and citing a rule which requires that passengers obey the orders of the flight crew. But, such a requirement applies only to orders which are lawful.

If, for example, the flight crew had ordered two passengers to fight each other for the amusement of the other passengers, or to take off all their clothing, the passengers would not be required to comply, and their forceful removal could not be based upon refusing to follow unlawful orders.
It's interesting to see some people with perhaps a more authoritarian viewpoint automatically default to a "the airline is in charge so what they say is automatically right and passengers must obey" stance.
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  #150  
Old 12.04.2017, 18:24
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Re: United Airlines

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How about they upped their offer to a reasonable amount? Or tried asking people before they boarded?
There are umpteen solutions to this problem that don't result in physically dragging an old man off a plane.
or treated their customers with respect and put the crew on a different flight?
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  #151  
Old 12.04.2017, 18:53
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Re: United Airlines

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or treated their customers with respect and put the crew on a different flight?
Exactly. There were three other flights that evening, one of which was only an hour later. Poor decision making and poor response.
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  #152  
Old 12.04.2017, 19:34
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Re: United Airlines

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Their rules are covered in an interesting article here:

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/unit...ing-passenger/

So basically calling it denied boarding is clearly b*****ks, the guy was boarded by all possible measures. Their policy once boarded gave them no right to throw him off, unless you count goading him into breaking the rules.
And by next week that list will be adapted Future customers at least know what they're in for now.

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What?! Erm... Well, my defence if I was a journalist would be that, though I don't speak Vietnamese, Thanh Duc and Anh Duy look as if they could be the English spellings of the same Vietnamese name.
No mate, there is no defence if this turns out to be true. The reaction to such a case is "I didn't do my job properly, I apologize for it and stand up for all the consequences." That is the absolute only decent reaction. Plus any half way intelligent person will learn his/her lesson from it!

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Exactly. There were three other flights that evening, one of which was only an hour later. Poor decision making and poor response.
An other sign for unprofessionalism of UA. Was the flight an hour later also by UA? Apparently the original flight was delayed by two hours!
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  #153  
Old 12.04.2017, 21:46
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Re: United Airlines

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An other sign for unprofessionalism of UA. Was the flight an hour later also by UA? Apparently the original flight was delayed by two hours!
I'm not going to say the entire airline is unprofessional, and we're a long way from having all the facts, but the flights were:
UA 3441 departing at 17:41. * The flight affected.*
American Airlines flight at 18:40
United at 21:00
Southwest flight at 22:25
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  #154  
Old 12.04.2017, 23:23
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Re: United Airlines

I was just dropped ng my daughter off for her unaccompanied minor flight to the UK and both the Swiss and the BA flights were overbooked. They offered money, hotel, dinner and stated which flight they would be rebooked on and people came up to be bumped before going through the gate. Some people did have luggage, but they are quite quick at taking that off (as with no shows). The thing is to ask BEFORE boarding.
The BA offer was 250 franks, Swiss was less, but hotel and dinner and an upgrade
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  #155  
Old 13.04.2017, 10:25
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Re: United Airlines

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I was just dropped ng my daughter off for her unaccompanied minor flight to the UK and both the Swiss and the BA flights were overbooked. They offered money, hotel, dinner and stated which flight they would be rebooked on and people came up to be bumped before going through the gate. Some people did have luggage, but they are quite quick at taking that off (as with no shows). The thing is to ask BEFORE boarding.
The BA offer was 250 franks, Swiss was less, but hotel and dinner and an upgrade
What if there are to many volunteers? Will some random picked be dragged into the plane?
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  #156  
Old 13.04.2017, 10:49
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Re: United Airlines

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What if there are to many volunteers? Will some random picked be dragged into the plane?
When I was in that situation at LAX, there were no takers for $150. Then it went to $250 plus guaranteed seats on a flight less than 3hrs later and a $30 food & drinks allowance for 8 passengers. In the time it took for us to say "Shall we?" "Yes!", there were 15 people in the queue before us.

As for Zurich, if it were dinner and a night in the Radisson, and arrival time wasn't a pressing issue, I'd take it in a heart beat. Got to love those wine angels
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Old 13.04.2017, 10:51
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Re: United Airlines

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Exactly. There were three other flights that evening, one of which was only an hour later. Poor decision making and poor response.
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I'm not going to say the entire airline is unprofessional, and we're a long way from having all the facts, but the flights were:
UA 3441 departing at 17:41. * The flight affected.*
American Airlines flight at 18:40
United at 21:00
Southwest flight at 22:25
Perhaps it was poor desicion making, perhaps it wasn't. Much more info and knowledge would be required for a fair assessment.

Similar to truck drivers, airplane personnel have to follow rules on work time, rest hours, etc. It's possible that using other flights would have violated these rules.
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  #158  
Old 13.04.2017, 11:44
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Re: United Airlines

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Perhaps it was poor desicion making, perhaps it wasn't. Much more info and knowledge would be required for a fair assessment.

Similar to truck drivers, airplane personnel have to follow rules on work time, rest hours, etc. It's possible that using other flights would have violated these rules.
I'm aware of that, (spent my last 2yrs in the UK working next to LHR's runways and surrounded by the rest hotels for crew) but the poor decision making could be in the crew rotation and roster. Staffing levels shouldn't have been dependent on bumping passengers off a flight.

As we've both said, there's a lot more info required and so many possibles scenarios, most of which would result in the airline taking a financial hit, but what did happen has probably hit the airline harder than a flight delay or cancellation. The really sad thing is that no United crew were physically involved as far as we know at this point. It was air marshals and/or police, but it's the airline's reputation that will be the loser and that wasn't helped by the 'official response'. Classic, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
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Old 13.04.2017, 12:16
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Re: United Airlines

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I'm aware of that, (spent my last 2yrs in the UK working next to LHR's runways and surrounded by the rest hotels for crew) but the poor decision making could be in the crew rotation and roster. Staffing levels shouldn't have been dependent on bumping passengers off a flight.
You agree that too little is known yet you have no doubt it was poor decision making i.e. the situation arose by UA's fault
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Old 13.04.2017, 14:03
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Re: United Airlines

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You agree that too little is known yet you have no doubt it was poor decision making i.e. the situation arose by UA's fault
How many times to I have to say this... I do not blame the airline for the incident that happened. The three people who bundled the guy off the flight were not airline employees by all accounts, and I believe that those people mismanaged the situation.

However, on a number of counts, the airline failed on this occasion. You know as well as I do that mistakes and incidents can happen in the workplace, particularly when dealing with the general public, but how you manage and respond to a situation makes or breaks you. If the airline response had been that they were ordering an immediate inquiry into how the situation arose in the first place, how it could have been managed better, how they will learn the lessons of this failure moving forward, and if they publically apologised to all the passengers, etc, some grace would have been given, but they didn't. I feel damned sorry for all the United employees who will have to fend off criticism from customers and passengers on the back of this. Their top brass's response has let them all down.

If this story is accurate, there's something going wrong at United and they need a serious campaign to restore public confidence.

http://www.latimes.com/business/laza...412-story.html
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