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  #181  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:22
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Sikh man offers free taxi rides to those that need it in Manchester.
Cosmopolitan ask to use the photo.
Cosmopolitan then print a headline saying he's Muslim.

In a nutshell, this is how much of the media works.


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  #182  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:24
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Morrissey isn't happy.

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  #183  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:24
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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GM - I wish edu was a magic quick fix. Why? Because it is fast and low investment/high return. But edu only helps where it is a priiority and where access is on an equal, earned basis. Quotas and positive discrimination destabilize this.
I was referring only to theological education which could allow people to work as imams etc
I know it's not a magic, neither a quick fix actually. As for positive discrimination in general, I have mixed feelings. I'm pro equal access, equal chances to education (which is a reality in countries like UK or France for instance)

(lol, have seen too many educated and "civilised" bastards for whom other people and other people's opinions are just bugs to be crushed to still believe that education could be a magic fix... )

Last edited by greenmount; 24.05.2017 at 09:39.
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  #184  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:36
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Morrissey isn't happy.

Empty words from a multimillionaire bubble. Hypocritical twat.

To think, I was a fan of his.
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  #185  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:44
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Empty words from a multimillionaire bubble. Hypocritical twat.

To think, I was a fan of his.
Not quite as empty as "thoughts and prayers" though.

But you're right, he is a twat.
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  #186  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:46
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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I am not angry, I am scared. And scared mostly because people refuse to see there is a big, big problem here for which the next generations will pay even harder than most of us.
The Western civilisation is enthusiatically killing itself. I would be tempted to say - let them, but wait...I am part of that too. I travel, my family travels, most people today travel, we are not living in a bubble. A life means nothing to other people, it means everything in the world to their families. Those people will never be able to recover. This is the sad truth.
The whole frenzy "We will not let anyone change our lifestyle" is scary. As if it will ever help with anything, the slogans. They are just slogans anyway. Some people are crushed and we are trying to make light of irreversible things such is the loss of a life. I'm out of this subject.
Try not to be scared; this means the terrorists are winning.
Forecasting the end of Western civilisation is overdoing it a bit. Terrible and tragic as these terrorist incidents are they are still relatively rare.

It is important to keep a sense of proportion.
In both the top years (1974 & 1992) the IRA made seven attacks in England that resulted in deaths and severe injuries and also made multiple attacks in most years.
According to this source there were almost 200 IRA attacks in UK between 1980 and 1996.

So far this year we have only seen two UK attacks by extremists and only a total of four attacks so far this decade.

It seems we will need to learn to live with terrorist attacks; I believe there will always be some extreme groups who resort to violence.
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  #187  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:47
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Not quite as empty as "thoughts and prayers" though.
I don't disagree with that.
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  #188  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:49
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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  #189  
Old 24.05.2017, 09:56
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Sikh man offers free taxi rides to those that need it in Manchester.
Cosmopolitan ask to use the photo.
Cosmopolitan then print a headline saying he's Muslim.

In a nutshell, this is how much of the media works.
No, They illustrated the story with a picture of a Sikh which was a bit dumb but they never specifically said he was a Muslim and anyway they soon changed the headline to "Taxi Drivers Took Kids Fleeing the Manchester Arena Home for Free".
The actual story says "The BBC reports taxi drivers (many of them Muslim or Sikh) began taking children and families wherever they needed to go — for free", see here.

There are also many tweets thanking Muslim taxi drivers for their free rides
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  #190  
Old 24.05.2017, 10:00
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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I was referring only to theological education which could allow people to work as imams etc
I know it's not a magic, neither a quick fix actually. As for positive discrimination in general, I have mixed feelings. I'm pro equal access, equal chances to education (which is a reality in countries like UK or France for instance)
I'd agree with it if it:

- offered equal chance and not the opposite
- did not stigmatize the minority group that it is trying to "help"

As per theological edu - why even assume our system has any resemblance to training of an imam. As per other edu, we used to go there for knowledge and wisdom. Now people from there send their kids to study (and be safe) here. How to change it...invite all here? Wait till matters deteorate to employ Geneva convention? Whatever is happening, our answer is late.

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(lol, have seen too many educated and "civilised" bastards for whom other people and other people's opinions are just bugs to be crushed to still believe that education could be a magic fix... )
True. Maybe "thoughts and prayers" are making some people feeling better.

The better our lives are, the more desireable they are for others. EEs are not risking so much, nobody wants to be there. Richer countries will have it tougher.
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  #191  
Old 24.05.2017, 10:06
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

But of course life will go on for the vast majority of Manchester and the world in general.

Not because of any bravery or spirit; it's just human nature.

It'll impact those close to victims forever, and they'll deal with it in different ways. But for the vast majority, beyond an initial empathetic reaction (be it grief, angst or anger) while it's on the news or being discussed, life will go on as normal.

Realistically, beyond security changes forced on us, how may people's day to day lives are impacted by 9/11, 7/7, the kid in the Syrian ambulance, Hebdo shootings, Paris shootings, etc?

If I'm in a crowd in a city, any fears I have are more likely to be toward scammers and pickpockets, not terrorists.

So yes; I'll get on with my life as normal. I'll do the things I want to do. I don't think I'm particularly unfeeling. I don't think I'm a hero. I'm just normal.
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  #192  
Old 24.05.2017, 11:05
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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If faith is used to justify liquidation of opponents, the only efficient way to fix it is by people of that faith, to not be associated. Is there a reformation movement going on? Is it successful?
No. Neither in Europe nor in the middle East. A German journalist (who happens to speak Arabic fluently...) went to 13 mosques, listened to the Friday prayers and wrote a book about it.
- Some Syrian refugees told him that the mosques in Europe are more conservative than in Syria
- Turkish mosques in Germany are highly political and controlled by the Turkish government via the organisation that's supposed to organize and control the imams, DTIB.
- A week after the massaker in Berlin was the Friday prayer in a major Berlin mosque not about what has happened, but the apparent danger of "celebrating Christmas"...

The guy picked his mosque visits at random and does not claim to be statistically correct. However, he avoided mosques which are known to be Salafistic, so he is not trying to fear-monger... it's probably easy to find worse examples than his.

http://www.stern.de/panorama/gesells...n-7391238.html


For me is it pretty simple: Mosques are the places where all of those terrorists were radicalized. Mosques are full of young people these days, including the many refugees. It's important what is said there - so I think foreign funding should be not accepted and German state funding needs to come with some conditions in regards of the values that are taught. And the state should occasionally check those... same in CH or the UK.
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  #193  
Old 24.05.2017, 11:07
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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That is not the same thing as a 4-6 years faculty where they are supposed to study many other things apart from religious dogma.
Of course, if there's no (reliable) authority to supervise the curriculum then the whole thing is pointless. But I don't see how progress can be made in the absence of serious education.
At least officially we have separation of state and religion. As a consequence Islamic entities like mosques are on the level of a Verein or similar, completely private entities by default. The state is to stay out unless they pose a threat to public safety or similar, see the mosque in Winterthur for example.

If state regulation and oversight is called for, I think it would require accepting Islam as an official religion (you can't regulate something the existence of which you haven't recognised), effectively placing it on the same level as the catholic and reformierte churches.

Even if that was possible at this time, that would require an entity or two that encompass and are accepted as authority over the Islamic organisations in Switzerland - no such entities exist (though the Islamic community is working on it). So some branches, like the Islamischer Zentralrat, still would stay out and remain unregulated; that's nothing new, same applies to some Christian faiths like the Evangelicals.

So in the end, the people who are the source of the problems still wouldn't be reached. Banning them may also be counterproductive as it may have them go "underground" and even more difficult to reach.

There are no easy or simple solutions.
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  #194  
Old 24.05.2017, 11:13
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Cool ideas.

But what is stopping a group of Muslims from gathering in someone's living room every Friday with an imam of their choice?

Not all mosques have minarets and loudspeakers to advertise their presence.
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  #195  
Old 24.05.2017, 11:19
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Er...no, it's not "trendy" to party like it's 632 AD...beards, bad haircuts and religious violence have been happening in Muslim lands for thousands of years. It needs to progress, like most other cultures and religions have...
Very simply and excellently put and completely true in every word. Over the centuries civilized mankind has evolved with most religions following behind and adapting their beliefs/doctrines in some way or another, and yes it is true that often it has taken a long time for a religion to adapt, but in the end they usually will for most things that society today has already accepted. These radicals as you say, have not, and their out of date beliefs and modus operandi towards their own people and foreigners remain in the dark ages.
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Old 24.05.2017, 11:25
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Cool ideas.

But what is stopping a group of Muslims from gathering in someone's living room every Friday with an imam of their choice?

Not all mosques have minarets and loudspeakers to advertise their presence.
Quite besides which, if you really believe government should stay out of religion, then government should not mandate that this imam is good and that one is bad.

It only serves to reinforce the "the whole world is against us" mentality of disaffected groups.
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Old 24.05.2017, 11:27
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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It did work, it just got stopped because as usual, suspected terrorist stupidly have the same humans rights as you and I.
the facts don't back that up, it was a huge boost for the IRA and swelled their numbers no end.
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Old 24.05.2017, 11:32
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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the facts don't back that up, it was a huge boost for the IRA and swelled their numbers no end.
yes, and we always say that terrorism achives nothing. But I don't know if there would ever have been a Good Friday agreement (or all the good things that came out of that) had there not been an IRA.
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Old 24.05.2017, 11:39
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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The UK terrorist threat level has been raised to the highest level: they are anticipating another attack. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40023488

My Dutch friend tells me they had a lot of problems with Indonesian immigrants in Holland. Not with the first wave, they could see that the European life was far more enjoyable, safer, and it was possible to progress up the food chain.

The problems were always with the second generation, the ones born in Europe. They had never been badly treated, never had to keep quiet while the police were pulling their property apart, always had more than one dictator to choose from at election times.

I have been watching the reults in the UK, & the same thing is happening there: the first arrivals settle down and are grateful for safety and a half decent job, but the second generation were given everything, and have grown up expecting jobs wihout actually studying for them. Consequently they are poorly skilled, poorly paid, and are jealous of their school friends who have studied and can afford a car and an apartment. Easy pickings when someone asks them what do they want in life.
Careful not to blanket all immigrants to the UK with your thoughts, and I am talking about immigrant Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi descendants who have been in the UK en masse since the 60s, today we are probably into the 3rd generation, they were born in Britain, 99% of them still follow the same hard work ethic of their parents and grand parents, a culture and way of being that has only added value to the UK.
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Old 24.05.2017, 12:07
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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I am not angry, I am scared. And scared mostly because people refuse to see there is a big, big problem here for which the next generations will pay even harder than most of us.
When I was a kid, there were three things to be scared of, the IRA, the Yorkshire Ripper and Jaws. At the time, the most real fear was the Yorkshire Ripper, and the only one I'm still scared of is sharks.

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The whole frenzy "We will not let anyone change our lifestyle" is scary. As if it will ever help with anything, the slogans. They are just slogans anyway - everything is changing. Some people are crushed and we are trying to make light of irreversible things such is the loss of a life.
When the people of Manchester say "We will not let anyone change our lifestyle, it's exactly what I expect from them. They're used to being bombed.

Stuff this...Let's get some perspective here... This is a list of terrorist attacks that took place on British soil during my childhood, from the ages of 5 and 18. 28 terrorist incidents and we didn't change our lifestyle.

    • 1971, 12 January: Two bombs exploded at the house of government minister Robert Carr. This attack was one of 25 carried out by the Angry Brigade between August 1970 and August 1971. The Bomb Squad was established at Scotland Yard in January 1971 to target the group, and they were apprehended in August of that year.[1][2]
    • 1971, 31 October: A bomb exploded in the Post Office Tower in London causing extensive damage but no injuries. The "Kilburn Battalion" of the IRA claimed responsibility for the explosion.[3]
    • 1972, 22 February: The Official Irish Republican Army killed seven civilians in the Aldershot bombing.
    • 1972, 19 September: The group Black September posted a letter bomb to the Israeli embassy in London killing an Israeli diplomat.[4]
    • 1973: The Provisional IRA exploded a car bomb in the street outside the Old Bailey. A shard of glass is preserved as a reminder, embedded in the wall at the top of the main stairs.
    • 1973, 10 September: The Provisional IRA set off bombs at London's King's Cross Station and Euston Station injuring 21 people.[5]
    • 1974, 4 February: Eight soldiers and 4 civilians killed by the Provisional IRA in the M62 coach bombing.
    • 1974, 17 June: The Provisional IRA planted a bomb which exploded at the Houses of Parliament, causing extensive damage and injuring 11 people.[6]
    • 1974, 5 October: Guildford and Woolwich pub bombings by the Provisional IRA left 4 off duty soldiers and a civilian dead and 44 injured.
    • 1974, 22 October: A bomb planted by the Provisional IRA explodes in London injuring 3 people.[7]
    • 1974, 14 November: James Patrick McDade, Lieutenant in the Birmingham Battalion, of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) was killed in a premature explosion whilst planting a bomb at the Coventry telephone exchange in 1974.
    • 1974, 21 November: The Birmingham pub bombings, 21 killed and 182 injured.
    • 1974, 18 December: Bomb planted by IRA in the run up to Christmas in one of Bristol's most popular shopping districts explodes injuring 17 people.[8]
    • 1975, 8 August: IRA detonate a bomb in the Caterham Arms pub in Surrey, 400yds from the army barracks in Caterham. 25 injured and 8 seriously injured.[9]
    • 1975, 27 November: IRA gunmen assassinated political activist and television personality Ross McWhirter.[10]
    • 1975, 20 December: The Ulster Defence Association (UDA) bombed Biddy Mulligan's pub in the Kilburn area of London. Five people were injured. It said it bombed the pub because it was frequented by Irish republican sympathizers.[11]
    • 1978, 17 December: IRA detonate bombs in Manchester, Liverpool, Coventry, Bristol and Southampton, injuring 7 in Bristol.[12]
    • 1979, 17 January: A bomb exploded at a Texaco oil terminal on Canvey Island, producing an 18-in diameter hole in a tank that was initially thought to contain aviation fuel. The Essex police had received no advance warning that a bomb had been planted.[13][14]
    • 1979, 17 February: The Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) bombed two pubs frequented by Catholics in Glasgow, Scotland. Both pubs were wrecked and a number of people were wounded. It said it bombed the pubs because they were used for Irish republican fundraising.[15]
    • 1979, 30 March: Airey Neave killed when a car bomb exploded under his car as he drove out of the Palace of Westminster car park. The Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) claimed responsibility for the killing.
    1980s
  • 1980, 30 April: The Iranian Embassy siege where a six-man terrorist team held the building for six days until the hostages were rescued by a raid by the SAS which was broadcast live on TV.
  • 1981, 10 October: The IRA detonated a bomb outside the Chelsea Barracks, killing two and injuring 39.
  • 1981, 26 October: The IRA bombed a Wimpy Bar on Oxford Street, killing Kenneth Howorth, the Metropolitan Police explosives officer attempting to defuse it.
  • 1982, 14 March: The bombing of the London ANC offices (African National Congress), wounding one person who was living upstairs. General Johann Coetzee, former head of the South African Security Police, and seven other policemen, claimed responsibility for the attack and applied for amnesty before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Coetzee's accomplices were Craig Williamson, John McPherson, Roger Raven, Wybrand du Toit, John Adam, James Taylor and Eugene de Kock.[16]
  • 1982, June: Abu Nidal killed the Israeli ambassador in London.[17]
  • 1982, 20 July: The Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings in London by the IRA killed eleven members of the Household Cavalry and the Royal Green Jackets.
  • 1982, 6 December: The Ballykelly pub bombing in Northern Ireland. Seventeen people were killed including many soldiers. The Irish National Liberation Army claimed responsibility.
  • 1983, 17 December: Harrods was bombed by the IRA. Six were killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store. (See Harrods bombing)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Great_Britain
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